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#1
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Sick of Dealers and Coins
This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law
school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I had been an avid collector. I told him the truth. "I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on the psyche" After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention floor than in any court. The bet was on. We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55 (value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100). Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing lib. What did the others do? Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers over that area of the case while we chatted. Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers: 1892-O Half Eagle Low offer: $250 Median offer: $650 High offer: $875 1916 Standing Lib Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times) Median offer: $550 High offer: $1300 Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900. "Are you positive about the grade?" "Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My standards are very strict." "What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed. "They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs. Slabbing a coin is expensive, though." "So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How about $1100?" He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay." "What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?" If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted. My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process - the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them - this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were actually worth. The final price: 1916 Standing Lib: $5300 1892-O Half Eagle: $1600 Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up; in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin against the grade when he sells it . . . |
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Phil Barnhart wrote:
This summer, a good friend and ethics professor at a prominent law school invited me up for a weekend. During this visit he commented that it had been quite awhile since I had mentioned coins to him. I had been an avid collector. I told him the truth. "I am sick of dishonest, unethical and greedy people. So I have sold almost all my coins and am leaving the hobby. It is just too hard on the psyche" After a great deal of debate, I made an offer to him. The ANA convention would be in Baltimore in a few weeks and I offered to prove to him that finding an honest dealer was harder in the convention floor than in any court. The bet was on. We met up at the convention, and I explained what we had to do. I had two coins, slabbed by well-known services, that we would remove from the slabs and try to sell. Each would be in an Eagle holder. Our story was that these were my father's coins, and he was now in a home and needed some money. One would be an 1892-O Half Eagle graded AU-55 (value between $1500-$2000). The second would be an 1916 Standing Lib graded AU-58 (value between $4500-$5100). Over six hours we approached 40 dealers (one of which posts here on occasion - do you remember us?). We were lied to (10 dealers pointed to the price of an 1892 Half Eagle on their grey sheet instead of the New Orleans coin). 6 dealers gave us prices for the 1917 Standing lib. What did the others do? Almost every one asked us how much we wanted. One dealer even had similarly grade 1916 in his case - he purposely laid several papers over that area of the case while we chatted. Almost every dealer undergraded these coins considerably. They used the terms "very good" and "fine." At least 8 dealers said that they had been cleaned. Here are the lowest and highest offers: 1892-O Half Eagle Low offer: $250 Median offer: $650 High offer: $875 1916 Standing Lib Low offer: $50 (offered 3 times) Median offer: $550 High offer: $1300 Many of these dealers were good ANA members, respected, and heavy Coin World advertisers. Not a single one of them were ethical. One well-known dealer eyed the Standing lib for several minutes, declared it an "extra-fine" and offered me $900. "Are you positive about the grade?" "Oh, yes. I've dealt with thousands of coins over the years. My standards are very strict." "What about grading companies?" Many of his coins were slabbed. "They can be all over the map, but usually my grade matches theirs. Slabbing a coin is expensive, though." "So this coin is extra-fine, and you can give me $900 right now? How about $1100?" He pretends to think about it a bit. "I think I know someone who might take this. MMmmmmmmmmmm. Okay." "What if I told you I know this coin is actually AU, was purchased from B&M five years ago, and is worth over 4 grand?" If looks would kill, I'd be dead. "Everyone is entitled to their opinion. A coin is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it." He had a few other choice words then had to call someone on his cell. This dealer was the only one we confronted. My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. For the record, I sent the coins back through the slabbing process - the standing lib came even back MS-63. Lol! I sold both of them - this time letting the dealer in LA know I knew what the coins were actually worth. The final price: 1916 Standing Lib: $5300 1892-O Half Eagle: $1600 Oh, and why did I take such a low price on the standing lib? I was actually offered more. Because I think the grading service messed up; in my own eyes it is a great AU, not a poor UNC. And ethically, I could not take more. I wonder if this dealer will discount the coin against the grade when he sells it . . . I find your story hard, no, impossible to believe. The 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter was in incredible demand at the Balto ANA, and at large shows, the dealer knows you'll shop it around and generally will offer you strong dollars for a desirable coin. In a slab by one of the two top grading companies, you'll generally receive considerably more $$ than trying to sell such coins raw as anyone in the business knows and anti-slabbers refuse to recognize. Many dealers are uncertain as to what final grade a slabbing company will put on a raw coin and will protect themselves by offering on the low side of wholesale value, estimating worst possible case from the grading companies. As far as the gold coin, many deceptive counterfeits abound, and even if the coin is genuine, it may have been lightly cleaned and this occurence may not be clearly noticable on the bourse floor. Even if a small portion of your scenario is true, I believe we have all learned that with quality coins it PAYS to get them certified. A far as your opinion that the so-called AU standing Lib was an AU and not an unc, and then selling at less than the going price for an AU in a reputable PCGS or NGC holder stretches the limits of credulity. 2 months ago I sold an NGC graded 1916 AU-53 Standing Lib to dealer JH Cline for $7100 and he sold it fo $7800. It did NOT have a full Head and was not so designated. End of story. Ira Stein |
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Bruce Hickmott responds to Phil barnhart's post:
Which services graded which coins? Which dealers said what? Who said this? That's very fast turnaround from PCGS/NGC, especially given that the coin were raw at the show. Which service turned them around so fast? Who's the LA dealer? You were offered more and you turned it down? That may not have been wise, for an AU58 to go to an MS63 is NOT uncommon, PCGS has said they will "upgrade" a nice AU to MS-something because thats where nice AU's sell. Nice AU's bring more than ugly mint state. It's a great story, but with the claims presented you need a few more specific facts to back it up. certainly, the dealer who offered you too much for the 1916 will remember you, and likely the dealer you took to task as well. If you can back this up with names, this is the sort of story that should be mailed to Remy Bourne, the new head of the ANA consumer protection group. As it stands, you might send it to Gary Lewis. Since it doesn't mention any names or grading services, he might respond in a general way. Bruce Bruce, you were too kind. The story is 90% bullcrap. $900 for an AU 1916 SLQ? This poster loves to stir up the pot with stories of unethical dealers. I doubt he'll ever mention names here or elsewhere, where such mention could come back and bite him, and bite him hard! I might expect some kernel of truth had he shopped those two coins at a flea market, but at the Baltimore ANA? Ira Stein |
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#7
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My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. What are going to do after you find out the $50 bottle of wine you bought only cost the winery $12 to produce? Jack |
#8
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Agreed,
years ago I was ripped off selling a gold coin. It wasn't until some time had passed that I realized just how bad I was taken "Edward McGrath" wrote in message ... I was in a coin store 2 years ago when two dealers / owners ripped a guy off by paying the guy a little above melt value for a gold coin worth $4000 so I know there are dishonest dealers in the coin business. I'm not saying all dealers are dishonest because I don't no all the dealers. In my experiences I equate the coin dealers to predators waiting to pounce down on unsuspecting newbies. Your only protection from these dealers / predators is knowledge. If your as kwowledgable as the dealer then and only then can you negoiate a fair price for your buys and sells. |
#9
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My good friend, the law profession, paid for drinks that night - and looked ill about our day. He agreed with me - in ANY other field what these dealers attempted would be unethical; in many cases even criminal fraud. One man's "caveat emptor" is another man's thievery. And I am sick of the lot of them. I just can't stand being around an entire crowd of people all trying to rip each other off. And certainly not any "fun." I've switched to wine tasting. What are going to do after you find out the $50 bottle of wine you bought only cost the winery $12 to produce? Jack And then what will you do when you realize the $50 bottle of wine was marked up 100% by the wine seller? Other wine sellers will then pay you only 50% for your unopened bottles you want to sell back to a wine dealer. Another question. What business are YOU in? I'd like to know. |
#10
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I would like to see a real undercover
investigation on something like this. Hidden tape recorders and video of the interaction between the seller and the dealer. A major convention would probably prohibit this so it would have to be done very carefully. |
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