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eBay's Big 4 TPGs



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 18th 09, 04:14 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 2:51 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Jerry Dennis wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis wrote:


Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was) notorious
for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other TPG have as
many MS-70s as ICG.


Jerry


According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:


PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%


ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who
developed the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief
grader, used the ANA standards. ?As such, MOST modern NCLT
(noncirculating legal tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they
have been mishandled. ?(70 is NOT "perfect")


Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards
for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic)
thus making PCGS coins "worth" more.


Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS ?will
grade MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.


From the PCGS official grading guide:


What slight friction? ?Discoloration on the high points? ?Who
cares!


--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
?http://www.frankcoins.comhttp://mywo...nsTexasAuction
License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - ?Full Time Since 1991


I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they
seem a lot tougher on MS grades.


That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.


...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?

James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.

Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law enforcement.


Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
title bar? I see a lot of dubious material there, but always a statement
such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is real or not" or "This is what my
grandfather's envelope says on it."

James the Shocked


Ads
  #12  
Old December 18th 09, 04:40 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs


"Frank Provasek" wrote in message
...
On Dec 18, 2:51 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Jerry Dennis wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis wrote:


Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was) notorious
for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other TPG have as
many MS-70s as ICG.


Jerry


According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:


PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%


ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who developed
the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief grader, used the
ANA standards. ?As such, MOST modern NCLT (noncirculating legal
tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they have been mishandled. ?(70
is NOT "perfect")


Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards
for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic) thus
making PCGS coins "worth" more.


Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS ?will grade
MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.


From the PCGS official grading guide:


What slight friction? ?Discoloration on the high points? ?Who cares!


--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
?http://www.frankcoins.comhttp://mywo...nsTexasAuction
License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - ?Full Time Since 1991


I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they seem
a lot tougher on MS grades.


That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.


...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?

James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.

Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law enforcement.
=================

I think it's ironic that, while we we feel qualified to judge the grades
assigned to our coins by the various TPGs like teachers grading students'
papers, our judgement means little to a buyer when selling a raw coin. If
we can tell when a TPG is accurate or not, why do we need the TPGs? I think
I know the answer.



  #13  
Old December 18th 09, 04:40 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Peter Irwin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 64
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

Mr. Jaggers lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
title bar? I see a lot of dubious material there, but always a statement
such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is real or not"


Why do people think this would be any kind of legal defence? I'm pretty
sure it is just the opposite. "I don't know if it is real or not"
demonstrates that it occurred to the seller that it might be fake
and that the seller did not take any reasonable steps to determine
the genuineness of a coin.

Peter.
--


  #14  
Old December 18th 09, 05:14 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Frank Provasek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 859
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

On Dec 18, 9:14*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 2:51 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Jerry Dennis wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis wrote:


Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was) notorious
for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other TPG have as
many MS-70s as ICG.


Jerry


According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:


PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%


ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who
developed the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief
grader, used the ANA standards. ?As such, MOST modern NCLT
(noncirculating legal tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they
have been mishandled. ?(70 is NOT "perfect")


Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards
for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic)
thus making PCGS coins "worth" more.


Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS ?will
grade MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.


From the PCGS official grading guide:


What slight friction? ?Discoloration on the high points? ?Who
cares!


--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
?http://www.frankcoins.comhttp://mywo...nsTexasAuction
License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - ?Full Time Since 1991


I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they
seem a lot tougher on MS grades.


That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.


...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?


James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.


Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law enforcement.


Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
title bar? *I see a lot of dubious material there, but always a statement
such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is real or not" or "This is what my
grandfather's envelope says on it."

James the Shocked- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, you can claim a fake coin is GENUINE, and ebay will seldom
question the auction, because "we have no numismatists on staff" and
such things about mintmarks of the totally wrong style and position
"are up to interpretation" so they usually side with the sellers
because ebay "believes all people are basically good."

But they are very efficient at removing auctions for "unapproved"
slabs...since all 4 of the "approved" grading services happen to have
various
endorsement fee, cross promotion, discount, profit sharing, referral
promotions with ebay....
  #15  
Old December 18th 09, 05:16 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Frank Provasek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 859
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

On Dec 18, 9:14*am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
title bar?

James the Shocked- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.

  #16  
Old December 18th 09, 05:35 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

Peter Irwin wrote:
Mr. Jaggers lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark
RAW, identified as such in the listing, right out in the open,
including in the title bar? I see a lot of dubious material there,
but always a statement such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is
real or not"


Why do people think this would be any kind of legal defence? I'm
pretty sure it is just the opposite. "I don't know if it is real or
not" demonstrates that it occurred to the seller that it might be fake
and that the seller did not take any reasonable steps to determine
the genuineness of a coin.


The real irony of all this is that eBay has, buried in its
near-hermetically-sealed regulations, two contradictory policies about
authenticity disclaimers - one prohibiting them and the other saying that
they are allowed. Here is a link to the prohibition:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/...sclaimers.html

Here is a link to the wording that allows them (note: it's hidden behind
the "additional information" button):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html

James


  #17  
Old December 18th 09, 05:38 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 9:14 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark
RAW, identified as such in the listing, right out in the open,
including in the title bar?

James the Shocked- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.


OK, I'll bite, who posted this, really?

James


  #18  
Old December 18th 09, 05:39 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 9:14 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:
Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 2:51 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Jerry Dennis wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis wrote:


Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was)
notorious for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other
TPG have as many MS-70s as ICG.


Jerry


According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:


PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%


ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who
developed the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief
grader, used the ANA standards. ?As such, MOST modern NCLT
(noncirculating legal tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they
have been mishandled. ?(70 is NOT "perfect")


Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal
standards for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in
their plastic) thus making PCGS coins "worth" more.


Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS ?will
grade MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.


From the PCGS official grading guide:


What slight friction? ?Discoloration on the high points? ?Who
cares!


--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
?http://www.frankcoins.comhttp://mywo...nsTexasAuction
License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - ?Full Time Since 1991


I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they
seem a lot tougher on MS grades.


That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.


...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?


James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.


Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW --
but if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or
Larry Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the
auction, and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law
enforcement.


Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark
RAW, identified as such in the listing, right out in the open,
including in the title bar? I see a lot of dubious material there,
but always a statement such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is
real or not" or "This is what my grandfather's envelope says on it."

James the Shocked- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


No, you can claim a fake coin is GENUINE, and ebay will seldom
question the auction, because "we have no numismatists on staff" and
such things about mintmarks of the totally wrong style and position
"are up to interpretation" so they usually side with the sellers
because ebay "believes all people are basically good."

But they are very efficient at removing auctions for "unapproved"
slabs...since all 4 of the "approved" grading services happen to have
various
endorsement fee, cross promotion, discount, profit sharing, referral
promotions with ebay....


That is indeed a sad state of affairs.

James


  #19  
Old December 18th 09, 08:39 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Frank Provasek
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 859
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

On Dec 17, 2:40*pm, Frank Provasek wrote:


From the PCGS official grading guide:

What slight friction? *Discoloration on the high points? *Who cares!


I received an email assuming that this is a paraphrase of PCGS's
philosophy, that they could not possibly actually
say "who cares" whether a coin graded Mint State has slight wear, and
asking exactly
how they worded it.

from The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection by
Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS).


www.frankcoins.com/grading.jpg



  #20  
Old December 19th 09, 12:16 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Jerry Dennis
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,207
Default eBay's Big 4 TPGs

On Dec 18, 9:53�am, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 18, 2:51�am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:





Jerry Dennis wrote:
On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek wrote:
On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis wrote:


Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was) notorious
for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other TPG have as
many MS-70s as ICG.


Jerry


According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:


PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%


ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who developed
the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief grader, used the
ANA standards. ?As such, MOST modern NCLT (noncirculating legal
tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they have been mishandled. ?(70
is NOT "perfect")


Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards
for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic) thus
making PCGS coins "worth" more.


Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS ?will grade
MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.


From the PCGS official grading guide:


What slight friction? ?Discoloration on the high points? ?Who cares!


--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
?http://www.frankcoins.comhttp://mywo...nsTexasAuction
License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - ?Full Time Since 1991


I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. �I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they seem
a lot tougher on MS grades.


That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.


...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?


James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.

Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law enforcement.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Paragraph 1 - I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of RCC-ers.
The "big four" plus PCI and SEGS are all relatively accurate in the
lower grades, I have no problem with any of them.

Paragraph 2 - Screw ebay.

Jerry
 




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