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#11
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On Sat, 13 Dec 2003 13:29:45 -0700, Grandpa jsdebooATcomcast.net
wrote: Dave wrote: As a white person in the United States, I'm often made to feel guilty about slavery. As another white person in the US, our response (stupid IMO) is to give those we feel sorry for having done something against in the distant past, some form of monetary renumeration and special treatment, be it lower university tuition or affirmative action, which is nothing more than reverse descrimination. I only mention it because I find it interesting that some find (as I do) that a simple but sincere "I'm sorry" is appropriate for those things that occurred so long ago that you personally had no hand in and are not responsible for. So I wonder if there will be an "I'm Sorry" stamp one day? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Grandpa: There already is one. Great Britain - Occasions stamps Issued: 04 February 2003 Scott #2101 (middle stamp) http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/2aocc1.jpg Sorry - FDC http://www.paston.co.uk/norvic/nvic7.jpg Sorry - special FDC cancel http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/2ae8348.jpg The stamps are also available for personalisation, and a collectors sheet has been produced as shown here. Collectors of CATS will be interested in the SORRY stamp at bottom left. Mint sheet http://www.norvic-philatelics.co.uk/occshtlg.jpg (scan is from pre-issue publicity) Personalized FDC http://www.paston.co.uk/norvic/nvic6.jpg Blair -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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One of the strangest dialogues that took place was between the unknown
and apparent offspring of Thomas Jefferson who were black and the known off-spring. It seems Mr J had a lady on the side. All sorts of allegations surfaced, then all of a sudden it got real quiet and dropped out of the news. I'm unsure how it finally played out. It's in the news still. Some of Jefferson's white descendants are fighting tooth and nail to ignore what seems to be incontrovertible DNA evidence that Jefferson did indeed father children with one of his slaves, Sally Hemings, but others have accepted it as fact and apparently are enjoying having a suddenly larger family network: http://charleston.net/stories/071403/wor_14jeff.shtml Bob Ingraham |
#13
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"Dave" wrote in message ... Since my ancestors all imigrated to Canada in the early to mid-1800s, never owned slaves and never had anything to do with slavery in any form I cannot feel any guilt. Should read early to mid-1700s (or 18th Century). All the research I've done and to make that sort of mistake! Dave |
#14
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I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations
for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases. Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that resulted in huge injustices to innocents. One (repeated endlessly, it seems, throughout Canada and the U.S.) was the virtual incarceration of native children in residential schools operated by various churches which were serving as nothing more nor less than government agencies to handle the "Indian Problem". The children were taught virtually nothing. In one school I have read about, the girls were taught to cook and sew, and the boys were "taught" to clear land for farming. They had been taken from their homes by the R.C.M.P., separated by sex from their siblings, and were not allowed to speak anything but English. Their meals in the winter consisted of oatmeal. Not salted oatmeal with sugar and cream, but plain boiled oatmeal. Beatings at the hands of priests and nuns were common. Sexual abuse also was common and has been thoroughly documented. To one's surprise today, these children grew into dysfunctional adults, too often raising dysfunctional children. Alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, and unemployment are endemic in Canada's native population today; my wife and I rarely had successful native students in our classrooms in Prince George. Many of the street people we see here in Vancouver every day are natives who still suffer from this injustice. The second major injustice I have had second-hand experience with is the internment of almost the entire Japanese Canadian population of Vancouver, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The Japanese community here consisted of several thousand productive farmers and fishermen and their families, living largely in an area known then as "Japantown," just north of Vancouver's Chinatown, which is still a thriving community. Families were "transported" -- there's no other word for it -- to bleak "camps" in the Interior; in reality, there were no camps, because the "Japs" were expected to build them. Back in Vancouver, their homes and business and fishing boats and belongings were confiscated and sold. I worked with a teacher in Prince George whose parents had been among those Japanese who were interned. He seemed rather stoic about his family's history, but I always felt it was a stoicism borne more of trauma than acceptance. In both these cases, it seems only right that the victims and their children deserve both compensation and apologies from current administrations. In fact, natives who survived the residential schools have in some cases received large cash settlements from the churches involved, and have seen some priests convicted and imprisoned for sexual crimes. One Anglican diocese actually went bankrupt paying court-ordered settlements. The Japanese community of British Columbia has received grudging acknowledgements by government that they were treated grievously, and there has been some compensation, but hardly an amount that equals their losses. How much is a hectare of prime farmland in the Fraser Delta worth today? I wouldn't hazard a guess. One of my "better" real-photo, postally used postcards pictures a torii gate that was erected in Japantown in honor of a Royal Visit, in 1912 I believe. A magnifying glass reveals a scene right out of Japan, with female shoppers wearing kimonos, street vendors, and signs everywhere in Japanese. Today, by contrast, Japantown is an urban disaster. I first saw it in the early 1970's, when a few Japanese who had returned still lived there. It was a slum then; we had to step around men who were sleeping on sidewalks littered with broken glass and trash. Today it has been "cleaned up" -- an annual Japanese festival is held in a tired-looking park -- but is devoid of anything even moderately interesting except for the few Japanese-style architectural artifacts that have survived. There are soup lines and "missions," but not one sign of an actual community of any sort, ethnic or otherwise. Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion. Bob Ingraham |
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote: I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases. Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that resulted in huge injustices to innocents. One (repeated endlessly, it seems, throughout Canada and the U.S.) was the virtual incarceration of native children in residential schools operated by various churches which were serving as nothing more nor less than government agencies to handle the "Indian Problem". The children were taught virtually nothing. In one school I have read about, the girls were taught to cook and sew, and the boys were "taught" to clear land for farming. They had been taken from their homes by the R.C.M.P., separated by sex from their siblings, and were not allowed to speak anything but English. Their meals in the winter consisted of oatmeal. Not salted oatmeal with sugar and cream, but plain boiled oatmeal. Beatings at the hands of priests and nuns were common. Sexual abuse also was common and has been thoroughly documented. To one's surprise today, these children grew into dysfunctional adults, too often raising dysfunctional children. Alcoholism, fetal alcohol syndrome, and unemployment are endemic in Canada's native population today; my wife and I rarely had successful native students in our classrooms in Prince George. Many of the street people we see here in Vancouver every day are natives who still suffer from this injustice. The second major injustice I have had second-hand experience with is the internment of almost the entire Japanese Canadian population of Vancouver, following the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour. The Japanese community here consisted of several thousand productive farmers and fishermen and their families, living largely in an area known then as "Japantown," just north of Vancouver's Chinatown, which is still a thriving community. Families were "transported" -- there's no other word for it -- to bleak "camps" in the Interior; in reality, there were no camps, because the "Japs" were expected to build them. Back in Vancouver, their homes and business and fishing boats and belongings were confiscated and sold. I worked with a teacher in Prince George whose parents had been among those Japanese who were interned. He seemed rather stoic about his family's history, but I always felt it was a stoicism borne more of trauma than acceptance. In both these cases, it seems only right that the victims and their children deserve both compensation and apologies from current administrations. In fact, natives who survived the residential schools have in some cases received large cash settlements from the churches involved, and have seen some priests convicted and imprisoned for sexual crimes. One Anglican diocese actually went bankrupt paying court-ordered settlements. The Japanese community of British Columbia has received grudging acknowledgements by government that they were treated grievously, and there has been some compensation, but hardly an amount that equals their losses. How much is a hectare of prime farmland in the Fraser Delta worth today? I wouldn't hazard a guess. One of my "better" real-photo, postally used postcards pictures a torii gate that was erected in Japantown in honor of a Royal Visit, in 1912 I believe. A magnifying glass reveals a scene right out of Japan, with female shoppers wearing kimonos, street vendors, and signs everywhere in Japanese. Today, by contrast, Japantown is an urban disaster. I first saw it in the early 1970's, when a few Japanese who had returned still lived there. It was a slum then; we had to step around men who were sleeping on sidewalks littered with broken glass and trash. Today it has been "cleaned up" -- an annual Japanese festival is held in a tired-looking park -- but is devoid of anything even moderately interesting except for the few Japanese-style architectural artifacts that have survived. There are soup lines and "missions," but not one sign of an actual community of any sort, ethnic or otherwise. Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion. ....and so is Japan against the U.S. ... still no "formal" apology. 2 wrongs don't make a right, but... Tracy Barber |
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On Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:23:55 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote: I am kinda on the fence about societal/political apologies and reparations for past misdeeds on the part of government, but I think I am more on the side of the plaintiffs than the defendants, at least in "modern" cases. Here in British Columbia, I have seen the results of two "programs" that resulted in huge injustices to innocents. Just a follow up... I don't want to sound insensitive to those that have bene "wronged" like Bob mentioned, but it arises from the mass hysteria that was war. BTW, I have, as well as others, helped out a school like Bob mentioned by sending countless stamps to them, while there was a stamp program in place. Not as bleak as the palce Bob mentioned, but fairly close... Tracy Barber |
#17
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"Victor Manta" wrote in message
... Peter, Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past *did* happen. And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)? I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect... I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights weren't properly observed (by nobody!). Victor Manta -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken |
#18
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-- Victor Manta "Peter Aitken" wrote in message .com... "Victor Manta" wrote in message ... Peter, Therefore, as I understand your opinion, the First Minister of Mongolia should indeed present his excuses to Russia, China and to dozens of other countries, because the atrocities committed by his ancestors in the distant past *did* happen. And that, consequently, the official, elected representatives of different native tribes worldwide should officially present their apologies for the massacres that they permanently perpetrated in the past against all who happened to live on the same territory (natives like them or not)? I just wonder if I speak here about a third category of massacres and injustices, about which any remembrance is politically incorrect... I continue to think that a country shows its respect for the humans of the past, present and future by implementing a proper political system and not by (thousand of) reciprocal excuses for times when the individual rights weren't properly observed (by nobody!). Victor Manta -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken |
#19
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Are you sure that I don't understand it? How about the following
Universal Declaration (?) In a time when the individual right weren't respected either by your people or by our one, we express our deeply regret for all atrocities, including for those perpetrated by our ancestors. Signed The Prime Minister Is it OK for you in this form? Victor Manta No, Victor, you do not understand my opinion at all. I am not saying any government should apologize for anything done in the past - nor am I saying that they *shouldn't* apologize. I was pointing out only that an apology does not necessarily imply guilt or responsibility on the part the the group giving the apology. That's all - nothing more. Peter G. Aitken |
#20
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Canada's government was guilty of a crime against a people; since
Canada's governments is an ongoing entity, it remains guilty in my opinion. A fitting commentary Bob, Thank you. The first half adequately covers the Aboriginal tragedy here. I guess the word that broadly covers the topic is empathy. I wonder the history book if role reversal, A Black Government removing children from white families, and fostering them to black families for better integration,care and education. (Remove gum to reply) |
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