Die struck counterfeits

I know that many of the scarce date small cents have been
counterfeited using dies copied from genuine coins. They can be very
difficult to detect unless you know the specific characteristics of
the dies.

But it seems like most of the die struck counterfeits that I am
familiar with are mint state coins (or should I say counterfeit
state?).

Have there been many of these counterfeits that have been manufactured
outside the mint and then given some type of artificial rubbing in
order to make them look like genuine circulated coins?

The reason why I ask is because I had an opportunity to purchase a
1909-S VDB today, it was raw and looked like a VF-20. I looked at it
with a strong glass and compared it with photos of genuine coins, and
all the details: Date, mintmark, VDB, etc., looked to be genuine.

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.

James McCown asks:



I know that many of the scarce date small cents have been
counterfeited using dies copied from genuine coins. They can be very
difficult to detect unless you know the specific characteristics of
the dies.

But it seems like most of the die struck counterfeits that I am
familiar with are mint state coins (or should I say counterfeit
state?).

Have there been many of these counterfeits that have been manufactured
outside the mint and then given some type of artificial rubbing in
order to make them look like genuine circulated coins?

The reason why I ask is because I had an opportunity to purchase a
1909-S VDB today, it was raw and looked like a VF-20. I looked at it
with a strong glass and compared it with photos of genuine coins, and
all the details: Date, mintmark, VDB, etc., looked to be genuine.

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.


Most bogus 1909 S VDBs in this grade have added s mintmarks. Of course, the
mintmark doesn't have the exact chracteristics of an original as well as none
of the other pointers. Most die struck counterfeitrs appear EF or better in
terms of appearance, with the majority mint state.

The coin you saw may have had an altered or recolored surface butsill been
genuine, nevertheless. Still, my advice is and always has been, get one in an
ANACS, ICG, PCGS or NGC holder for that date. Then crack it out if you want it
raw for an album.


Ira Stein

From: (James McCown)

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.

What color was it? Did it have an orange-ish cast to it? Or were the details
sort of mushy?

--
mark

You know, I've been thinking that a good tool and die maker with access to a
punch press and other metal working tools could make some very realistic
looking counterfits. Give the metals the right composition by melting some
of the more common issues, polish up the metal and stamp with the die.

--
*
/?\
/___\
-O=O-
^
AS & His Magic Hat

A conclusion is simply the place
where you decided to stop thinking.
"mark" wrote in message
...
From: (James McCown)

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.

What color was it? Did it have an orange-ish cast to it? Or were the
details
sort of mushy?

--
mark

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:22:09 -0700, Aladdin Sane
wrote:

You know, I've been thinking that a good tool and die maker with access
to a
punch press and other metal working tools could make some very realistic
looking counterfits. Give the metals the right composition by melting
some
of the more common issues, polish up the metal and stamp with the die.

It doesn't even take that much to make convincing counterfeits. Really
all that is required is a lack of ethics.

I think that you'll find that it requires a great deal of skill to
produce convincing counterfeits.

If a lack of ethics was all that was required there would be more
counterfeit coins in circulation than real ones. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Mon, 4 Oct 2004 21:22:09 -0700, Aladdin Sane
wrote:

You know, I've been thinking that a good tool and die maker with access
to a
punch press and other metal working tools could make some very realistic
looking counterfits. Give the metals the right composition by melting
some
of the more common issues, polish up the metal and stamp with the die.

It doesn't even take that much to make convincing counterfeits. Really
all that is required is a lack of ethics.

ustion (mark) wrote in message ...
From: (James McCown)

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.

What color was it? Did it have an orange-ish cast to it? Or were the details
sort of mushy?

Dark chocolate brown. Not mushy, but different in some way from every
genuine 1909-S VDB I have ever seen.

On 4 Oct 2004 18:08:55 -0700, (James McCown) is
alleged to have written:

I know that many of the scarce date small cents have been
counterfeited using dies copied from genuine coins. They can be very
difficult to detect unless you know the specific characteristics of
the dies.

But it seems like most of the die struck counterfeits that I am
familiar with are mint state coins (or should I say counterfeit
state?).

Have there been many of these counterfeits that have been manufactured
outside the mint and then given some type of artificial rubbing in
order to make them look like genuine circulated coins?


Oh, yeah. It's easier to spot a die struck counterfeit on a 'MS' coin, it's
much more difficult in VG or less. The 1796 No Poles in the Cohen sale were both
counterfeit, both bought as real by one of the foremost researchers of half
cents.



The reason why I ask is because I had an opportunity to purchase a
1909-S VDB today, it was raw and looked like a VF-20. I looked at it
with a strong glass and compared it with photos of genuine coins, and
all the details: Date, mintmark, VDB, etc., looked to be genuine.

But there was something about that coin that made me uneasy. I can't
say what. So I passed on it.

Probably wise.

Bruce

On Tue, 05 Oct 2004 11:58:16 GMT, note.boy
wrote:

I think that you'll find that it requires a great deal of skill to
produce convincing counterfeits.

Some skill, but not necessarily a great deal of skill. It is more being
able to access the right tools. It's not like they have to hand engrace
these dies. Good tools and average skill is more than sufficient.

If a lack of ethics was all that was required there would be more
counterfeit coins in circulation than real ones. Billy

A lack of ethics and some willingness to apply oneself to making
counterfeits. It is definitly not a crime for the truly lazy criminals.

Bruce Hickmott wrote in message . ..
On 4 Oct 2004 18:08:55 -0700, (James McCown) is
alleged to have written:

I know that many of the scarce date small cents have been
counterfeited using dies copied from genuine coins. They can be very
difficult to detect unless you know the specific characteristics of
the dies.

But it seems like most of the die struck counterfeits that I am
familiar with are mint state coins (or should I say counterfeit
state?).

Have there been many of these counterfeits that have been manufactured
outside the mint and then given some type of artificial rubbing in
order to make them look like genuine circulated coins?


Oh, yeah. It's easier to spot a die struck counterfeit on a 'MS' coin, it's
much more difficult in VG or less. The 1796 No Poles in the Cohen sale were both
counterfeit, both bought as real by one of the foremost researchers of half
cents.

That is amazing. Were the 1796 no poles altered or die-struck? As I
recall, they were both very low grade.