How would you answer this question to seller

This is the type of post that some would say requires an FA prefix in the
subject line, since it pertains to one of my ongoing auctions, but the
purpose of my post is to address a numismatic consideration or two. This
morning, I received this question for seller;

"Hi,I wondering if any of the coins in this 3 coin Vet set has any white
haze on them?Usually you notice it around the edges.Also,are there any tiny
little black spots?What shape is the box and sleve in?You will honor returns
as stated,right.Thanks alot." Xxxx

The auction;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3041091433



My answer;

"Xxxx, I am familiar with the white haze you talk about. I took another
look at these coins and I did not notice any haze, nor any little black
spots. At the same time, I do not think all three coins are necessarily
perfect. I think the Prisoner of War would get a 68 from PCGS and the other
two would get a 68 or a 69, but that is my opinion and I can not guarantee
what the services would give. I think a PF68 minimum, maybe better.

I would allow a return within a reasonable time, up to three weeks from my
ship date, allowing a week for delivery and two weeks for inspection, 2nd
opinions, etc. But, the buyer will still be responsible for shipping
charges. I will refund the bid price only. Bill"


I am uncomfortable with the question I received. How closely should a
seller look at his item. I purchased this 3 coin set from the US Mint back
when it was issued. I made a brief examination of the set before and as I
listed the auction, but I wasn't looking to see if the coins were perfect,
or to what degree the tiny imperfections might exist. I was looking for
toning or pertinent problems, otherwise I was selling one owner, mint issued
proof coins. Period.

Further, while I have a clue as to whether a coin will be a high, medium, or
low grade proof, I really don't want to start putting PFXX grades on my
proofs that I sell. Heck, for all I know, one or two of these proofs might
be a PF70. I just don't care for putting the loupe to the coins to find
out, just not for me. Personally, if a proof coin looks nice, I don't care
if it is a 67, 68, or whatever.

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction, decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not cost me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same time, I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

"Bill Krummel" wrote in message
...
This is the type of post that some would say requires an FA prefix in the
subject line, since it pertains to one of my ongoing auctions, but the
purpose of my post is to address a numismatic consideration or two. This
morning, I received this question for seller;

"Hi,I wondering if any of the coins in this 3 coin Vet set has any white
haze on them?Usually you notice it around the edges.Also,are there any
tiny
little black spots?What shape is the box and sleve in?You will honor
returns
as stated,right.Thanks alot." Xxxx

The auction;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3041091433


Well I looked at the auctions, and my opinion is.... drumroll
puhleeeeezzz....

The haze is in the head of the person asking you the question.

So there.

Dave

Bill Krummel wrote:

This is the type of post that some would say requires an FA prefix in the
subject line, since it pertains to one of my ongoing auctions, but the
purpose of my post is to address a numismatic consideration or two. This
morning, I received this question for seller;

"Hi,I wondering if any of the coins in this 3 coin Vet set has any white
haze on them?Usually you notice it around the edges.Also,are there any tiny
little black spots?What shape is the box and sleve in?You will honor returns
as stated,right.Thanks alot." Xxxx

The auction;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3041091433

My answer;

"Xxxx, I am familiar with the white haze you talk about. I took another
look at these coins and I did not notice any haze, nor any little black
spots. At the same time, I do not think all three coins are necessarily
perfect. I think the Prisoner of War would get a 68 from PCGS and the other
two would get a 68 or a 69, but that is my opinion and I can not guarantee
what the services would give. I think a PF68 minimum, maybe better.

I would allow a return within a reasonable time, up to three weeks from my
ship date, allowing a week for delivery and two weeks for inspection, 2nd
opinions, etc. But, the buyer will still be responsible for shipping
charges. I will refund the bid price only. Bill"

I am uncomfortable with the question I received. How closely should a
seller look at his item. I purchased this 3 coin set from the US Mint back
when it was issued. I made a brief examination of the set before and as I
listed the auction, but I wasn't looking to see if the coins were perfect,
or to what degree the tiny imperfections might exist. I was looking for
toning or pertinent problems, otherwise I was selling one owner, mint issued
proof coins. Period.

Further, while I have a clue as to whether a coin will be a high, medium, or
low grade proof, I really don't want to start putting PFXX grades on my
proofs that I sell. Heck, for all I know, one or two of these proofs might
be a PF70. I just don't care for putting the loupe to the coins to find
out, just not for me. Personally, if a proof coin looks nice, I don't care
if it is a 67, 68, or whatever.

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction, decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not cost me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same time, I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

Asking if the coins have any spots or haze, or if the packaging is damaged, are reasonable question.

Just stating that the coins and packaging are "as they came from the mint" really doesn't tell the buyer anything about the condition of the coins. I've seen many coins from the mint that have haze, spots and other damage.

I would have stoped at the honest answer to the bidders question. Trying to guess what grade a service will give the coins is opening you up to trouble if they don't agree with you.

JAM

"J. A. M." wrote in message
...
Bill Krummel wrote:

This is the type of post that some would say requires an FA prefix in
the
subject line, since it pertains to one of my ongoing auctions, but the
purpose of my post is to address a numismatic consideration or two.
This
morning, I received this question for seller;

"Hi,I wondering if any of the coins in this 3 coin Vet set has any white
haze on them?Usually you notice it around the edges.Also,are there any
tiny
little black spots?What shape is the box and sleve in?You will honor
returns
as stated,right.Thanks alot." Xxxx

The auction;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3041091433

My answer;

"Xxxx, I am familiar with the white haze you talk about. I took
another
look at these coins and I did not notice any haze, nor any little black
spots. At the same time, I do not think all three coins are necessarily
perfect. I think the Prisoner of War would get a 68 from PCGS and the
other
two would get a 68 or a 69, but that is my opinion and I can not
guarantee
what the services would give. I think a PF68 minimum, maybe better.

I would allow a return within a reasonable time, up to three weeks from
my
ship date, allowing a week for delivery and two weeks for inspection,
2nd
opinions, etc. But, the buyer will still be responsible for shipping
charges. I will refund the bid price only. Bill"

I am uncomfortable with the question I received. How closely should a
seller look at his item. I purchased this 3 coin set from the US Mint
back
when it was issued. I made a brief examination of the set before and as
I
listed the auction, but I wasn't looking to see if the coins were
perfect,
or to what degree the tiny imperfections might exist. I was looking for
toning or pertinent problems, otherwise I was selling one owner, mint
issued
proof coins. Period.

Further, while I have a clue as to whether a coin will be a high,
medium, or
low grade proof, I really don't want to start putting PFXX grades on my
proofs that I sell. Heck, for all I know, one or two of these proofs
might
be a PF70. I just don't care for putting the loupe to the coins to find
out, just not for me. Personally, if a proof coin looks nice, I don't
care
if it is a 67, 68, or whatever.

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction,
decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not cost
me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same time,
I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

Asking if the coins have any spots or haze, or if the packaging is
damaged, are reasonable question.

Just stating that the coins and packaging are "as they came from the mint"
really doesn't tell the buyer anything about the condition of the coins.
I've seen many coins from the mint that have haze, spots and other damage.

I would have stoped at the honest answer to the bidders question. Trying
to guess what grade a service will give the coins is opening you up to
trouble if they don't agree with you.

JAM

Those are some good points, JAM, but..... I also sell 1971 proof sets, like
for $3-$5 and the same principle applies. Should I get out the 16X and
spend ten minutes carefully examining each side of each coin or should I
carefully spend a minute looking for obvious problems. How much am I
obligated to do? Heck, I put a $1 start, no reserve, on my auctions and
lose money on a decent percentage of coins I sell. Should I double my time
investment? Triple?

Honestly, I never put a loupe to these coins before the question. Looking
with the naked eye, there are no haze, no marks to be seen, no toning, just
a nice set and I have less than a minute of my time invested. Looking with
a 16X loupe, I see lots of things that I finally determine are on the
plastic and reflected off of the coin, but not on the coin; lint,
microscopic scratches, etc.- all are not on the coin. Mucho time invested.
That's not so serious with this item, more high dollar, but what about the
$5 items?

At first, when examining this set with a 16X, I thought, 'no haze,
except, whoa, what is that on the upper left edge of the POW dollar?' I
thought it was a white discoloration of some kind, but not the haze I think
the questioner was inquiring about. Just now, looking a second time with a
16X, I have determined that it is again the plastic holder and all I am
seeing on the coin is a reflection. Looking more carefully at the POW, I
think it is a PF69, but wait, that's only one side. The other side? Well
forget it, I'll stick with the naked eye.

Your comment about not assigning a number is noted, but using a number can
sure help describe a coin. Not completely of course, but still an aid. I
think I covered my donkey when I said the number was my opinion and no
guarantee of what a grading service would give. Maybe not, but I think so.

One of the points I wanted to address was what should we expect from a
seller? I would consider haze a problem, and I stated "no problems" in my
description. Should I have said "no haze"? Should I have said "no
toning"? Should I have said "no cracked cases"? I have not seen anything
yet on any of the coins, after my second look, that would make these coins
anything less than PF69s, but am I obligated to look until I find a
disqualifier or until I give up? I don't know, all of these questions were
triggered by the "question to seller" that I received. Bill

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
"Bill Krummel" wrote:

This is the type of post that some would say requires an FA prefix in the
subject line, since it pertains to one of my ongoing auctions, but the
purpose of my post is to address a numismatic consideration or two.
This
morning, I received this question for seller;

"Hi,I wondering if any of the coins in this 3 coin Vet set has any white
haze on them?Usually you notice it around the edges.Also,are there any
tiny
little black spots?What shape is the box and sleve in?You will honor
returns
as stated,right.Thanks alot." Xxxx

The auction;

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3041091433



My answer;

"Xxxx, I am familiar with the white haze you talk about. I took
another
look at these coins and I did not notice any haze, nor any little black
spots. At the same time, I do not think all three coins are necessarily
perfect. I think the Prisoner of War would get a 68 from PCGS and the
other
two would get a 68 or a 69, but that is my opinion and I can not
guarantee
what the services would give. I think a PF68 minimum, maybe better.

I would allow a return within a reasonable time, up to three weeks from
my
ship date, allowing a week for delivery and two weeks for inspection, 2nd
opinions, etc. But, the buyer will still be responsible for shipping
charges. I will refund the bid price only. Bill"


I am uncomfortable with the question I received. How closely should a
seller look at his item. I purchased this 3 coin set from the US Mint
back
when it was issued. I made a brief examination of the set before and as
I
listed the auction, but I wasn't looking to see if the coins were
perfect,
or to what degree the tiny imperfections might exist. I was looking for
toning or pertinent problems, otherwise I was selling one owner, mint
issued
proof coins. Period.

Further, while I have a clue as to whether a coin will be a high, medium,
or
low grade proof, I really don't want to start putting PFXX grades on my
proofs that I sell. Heck, for all I know, one or two of these proofs
might
be a PF70. I just don't care for putting the loupe to the coins to find
out, just not for me. Personally, if a proof coin looks nice, I don't
care
if it is a 67, 68, or whatever.

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction,
decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not cost
me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same time, I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill





Bill,
I figure that must have come from the guy "wiz......" something or
other. There are now 28 bids on it and he's trying to find my proxy.
Just let me say that he will have to dig damn deep to get it from me

Cliff

Yeah, Cliff, I was all excited to see 28 bids. Then, when I went to check
my images and description, I saw the hit counter only showed five hits, so I
checked bid history and saw that there were only five unique bidders. So,
either the counter is not working right, which is possible, or everyone who
has looked at the auction has bid. It's a nice set, good luck. Bill

"Harv" wrote in message
...

"Bill Krummel" wrote in message
...

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction,
decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not cost
me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same time,
I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

"Dear Xxxx.. I am not selling coins on approval, nor am I going to assign
numerical grades to them. I am not a grading service. If you are looking
for
these coins in a certain grade, I suggest you buy them already slabbed in
slabs from the grading company of your choice. As far as I can see, they
do
not have [this problem] or [that problem]. Grading is subjective. You can
buy a coin in a slab, crack it out, send it back to the same grading
company
and get it back with a different grade on it. These are Mint encapsulated
coins which have never been out of their capsules, and have had one owner.
They have not been stored under adverse conditions. But please don't ask
me
to tell you if they would grade PR68, PR69 or PR70 from any particular
grading company, because I simply don't know, and I'm not going to give
you
any guarantees if you choose to submit them. It is a good looking,
presentable set that I think any reasonable person who buys it would be
happy with."

Further, Bill, I have started adding the following to all my auctions,
which
was cobbled together from terms I found in various other auctions..

Buyer shall inspect the product upon delivery. If buyer deems product to
be
damaged, it is the Buyer's responsibility to photograph the package and
notify us.

Buyer must notify seller of any defects, shipping damage or general
unhappiness within 3 DAYS OF DELIVERY. Failure of Buyer to notify us shall
constitute an acceptance of the product and waiver of all defects and/or
nonconformity in the product.

Buyers are responsible for return shipping charges. Refunds will be
processed after we receive the returned products. Refunds do not include
shipping costs.

Harv

Selling coins on approval is a good way to express what I thought when I
read the emailer's question. But, it was still a legitimate question that
caused me to worry more than I probably should. The only imperfection I am
certain of with the POW dollar is a tiny spot of frost break on the eagle.
Should that be mentioned in the auction description? The reason why I ask
these questions is because sometimes I get the feeling that some buyers
expect exactly that. I haven't seen a black spot yet on the coins and I
don't think there are any. But, if I look for an hour, maybe there is one
somewhere on one of the coins and I would find it. If I don't find it and
the buyer does, what exactly does that mean? I've told the guy there are
no tiny black spots, and I think I am correct, but I could be proven wrong.

Returns have never been a problem with my auctions ( 3 out of 700-1,000
auctions in the last 5 years), so I don't think I will add anything to my
policies unless returns become a problem. Bill

"Cliff" wrote in message
...
"Bill Krummel" wrote:


"Harv" wrote in message
. ..

"Bill Krummel" wrote in message
...

My concerns about Xxxx's concerns are that he will win the auction,
decide
the coins are not PF70s and want to return the set, which will not
cost
me
$s, but will be a nuisance. To be honest, I entertained responding
by
telling the guy to not bother bidding on the set, but at the same
time,
I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

"Dear Xxxx.. I am not selling coins on approval, nor am I going to
assign
numerical grades to them. I am not a grading service. If you are
looking
for
these coins in a certain grade, I suggest you buy them already slabbed
in
slabs from the grading company of your choice. As far as I can see,
they
do
not have [this problem] or [that problem]. Grading is subjective. You
can
buy a coin in a slab, crack it out, send it back to the same grading
company
and get it back with a different grade on it. These are Mint
encapsulated
coins which have never been out of their capsules, and have had one
owner.
They have not been stored under adverse conditions. But please don't
ask
me
to tell you if they would grade PR68, PR69 or PR70 from any particular
grading company, because I simply don't know, and I'm not going to give
you
any guarantees if you choose to submit them. It is a good looking,
presentable set that I think any reasonable person who buys it would be
happy with."

Further, Bill, I have started adding the following to all my auctions,
which
was cobbled together from terms I found in various other auctions..

Buyer shall inspect the product upon delivery. If buyer deems product
to
be
damaged, it is the Buyer's responsibility to photograph the package and
notify us.

Buyer must notify seller of any defects, shipping damage or general
unhappiness within 3 DAYS OF DELIVERY. Failure of Buyer to notify us
shall
constitute an acceptance of the product and waiver of all defects
and/or
nonconformity in the product.

Buyers are responsible for return shipping charges. Refunds will be
processed after we receive the returned products. Refunds do not
include
shipping costs.

Harv

Selling coins on approval is a good way to express what I thought when I
read the emailer's question. But, it was still a legitimate question
that
caused me to worry more than I probably should. The only imperfection I
am
certain of with the POW dollar is a tiny spot of frost break on the
eagle.
Should that be mentioned in the auction description? The reason why I
ask
these questions is because sometimes I get the feeling that some buyers
expect exactly that. I haven't seen a black spot yet on the coins and I
don't think there are any. But, if I look for an hour, maybe there is
one
somewhere on one of the coins and I would find it. If I don't find it
and
the buyer does, what exactly does that mean? I've told the guy there
are
no tiny black spots, and I think I am correct, but I could be proven
wrong.

Returns have never been a problem with my auctions ( 3 out of 700-1,000
auctions in the last 5 years), so I don't think I will add anything to
my
policies unless returns become a problem. Bill


I just looked and hit counter said 89 hits and it's showing 29 bids.
Cliff

I see 29 bids, one more than earlier but no change in the high bid. Hmmmm.
And, the counter says 90. I promise, it said 5 an hour ago. Either the
counter was broke an hour ago, or this thread has created some traffic.
Bill

In article , "Bill Krummel"
writes:


Returns have never been a problem with my auctions ( 3 out of 700-1,000
auctions in the last 5 years), so I don't think I will add anything to my
policies unless returns become a problem. Bill



I have similar experience. Very few returns and not really a problem, so
stating a policy is like running up a red flag for bidders. You may disappoint
a few, but, by and large, they're looking for something for nothing and do not
constitute an important potential for bids or buys.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

"Art O'Connell" wrote in message
.net...
Bill,

I very seldom ever sell anything, so this is my buyer's perspective. I
think
that the buyer can ask any question that helps him/her find out if what
they
are going to bid on will meet their expectations. Their expectations by
the
way, may have nothing to do with yours.

If the buyer is "cherry picking" by looking for MS70 coins at MS64 prices,
who can blame him. I think you have only to state what your are offering.
If
your sight inspection is brief and only indicates no damage visible to
you -- say so. I don't think you have any obligation to do a 16x
inspection
and define every minor detail of the coin.

By the way, you are on my eBay favorites list and I check your auctions
regularly. Unfortunately, I have never been able to afford anything that
you've had that I needed.

Good luck and continue to do the nice work that you're doing.

Art


Well, you've hit a few things on the head. Yes, a prospective buyer should
be able to ask questions that help him make a decision. I really have no
problems with that. But, I do worry that someone will buy something,
hoping for MS70, and want to return it if it doesn't measure. I don't mind
if they win an MS70 at MS64 prices - good for them- I just mind if they want
to return an MS67, purchased at MS64 prices, just because it wasn't an MS69
or MS70. By having a no questions asked return policy, I have set myself
up for that sort of thing, yet it hasn't been a problem -so far. I reacted
to today's seller question with a paranoia that the potential bidder was
looking for perfection and could/would return it if perfection was not
there. I think it (paranoia) came from looking at the coin closely so as to
provide an accurate answer and realizing that I could still miss something
that he would see. And, most items that I list, I will give the coin a
decent glance, determine my grade, look for rim dings, scratches, stains,
etc., then list the coin. In the process, I might miss something that I
shouldn't have missed or see something I do not think is consequential and
someone else may feel differently. Of course, that is why I have a liberal
return policy, just hopeful that it is not abused.

Thinking some more, I think another aspect here is that I really don't like
putting a loupe to coins. I think it is necessary, of course, in today's
market and at certain price levels. But, I personally don't enjoy a coin
through a loupe. What I can't see with my naked eye is not there, as far as
my personal satisfaction goes. I've had some coins I have really enjoyed,
until I put 16X on them, then I see all of these microscopic imperfections
and don't feel the same about the coin. Were it not for selling, and my
obligation to the buyer, and high market prices, alterations, counterfeits,
A.T., etc., I could throw my loupes away and never use one again on a coin
and be happier for it. Bill

Bill Krummel wrote:

"J. A. M." wrote in message
...

I
felt there was some legitimacy to his concerns. Opinions? Bill

Asking if the coins have any spots or haze, or if the packaging is
damaged, are reasonable question.

Just stating that the coins and packaging are "as they came from the mint"
really doesn't tell the buyer anything about the condition of the coins.
I've seen many coins from the mint that have haze, spots and other damage.

I would have stoped at the honest answer to the bidders question. Trying
to guess what grade a service will give the coins is opening you up to
trouble if they don't agree with you.

JAM

Those are some good points, JAM, but..... I also sell 1971 proof sets, like
for $3-$5 and the same principle applies. Should I get out the 16X and
spend ten minutes carefully examining each side of each coin or should I
carefully spend a minute looking for obvious problems. How much am I
obligated to do? Heck, I put a $1 start, no reserve, on my auctions and
lose money on a decent percentage of coins I sell. Should I double my time
investment? Triple?



When reading a description of a mint product I'm happy if the seller states "no haze, no spots" or "no problems". There is no need to pull out the loupe.

What really waists my time is a seller that quotes the COA, the history of the coins design, raves about the originality of the packaging. Then goes on for dozens of lines about their terms and never once mentions the condition of the coins!

JAM