What would you have done?

And just why would an agreement not to bid be illegal? It seems to me that
you cannot force everyone attendiong an auction to bid on every item, so how
can you force them to bid on certain items?


Bob. You are looking at a complex
situation in very simple terms only.

If you don't get it by now I think you
might as well give up.

I would think that it would be near impossible prosecute collectors for
operating a bidding ring, i.e. agreeing not to bid against each other,
as obtaining proof would be difficult, but it might be easier against a
ring of dealers as a pattern may be easier to detect and prove.

Does anyone know of any prosecutions for operating bidding rings? I
don't remember any in the UK but there may have been.

Two auction houses have been done for commission rate fixing of course.
Billy


JSTONE9352 wrote:


And just why would an agreement not to bid be illegal? It seems to me that
you cannot force everyone attendiong an auction to bid on every item, so how
can you force them to bid on certain items?

Bob. You are looking at a complex
situation in very simple terms only.

If you don't get it by now I think you
might as well give up.

And just why would an agreement not to bid be illegal?

Conspiracy to manipulate an open forum of a negotiable item at an auction. The
same argument, given terminology alterations, might also be used in the stock
market, but it's manipulation, it's illegal, and therefore it's not allowed.

It is true that the laws governoring this situation vary from state to state,
and in some cases, on a county basis. The specific laws, terminology
definitions, and retributions for "price fixing" may be different in your state
than the situation in the state of the original poster. Unless you're both in
the same place ...

8-/

"JSTONE9352" wrote in message
...

And just why would an agreement not to bid be illegal? It seems to me
that
you cannot force everyone attendiong an auction to bid on every item, so
how
can you force them to bid on certain items?


Bob. You are looking at a complex
situation in very simple terms only.

If you don't get it by now I think you
might as well give up.

I think I just may. I can see no argument, simple or complex, that would
result in forcing someone to bid on something at an auction.

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 13:39:53 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

And just why would an agreement not to bid be illegal? It seems to me that
you cannot force everyone attendiong an auction to bid on every item, so how
can you force them to bid on certain items?

It's a matter of the legal concept of intent. If you intended to bid, but
did not do so because of a conspiracy it is an illegal act. OTOH, if you
chose not to bid against buddy without that conspiracy it would not be
illegal. They key here is the collusion.

Sure it's a tough call for a prosecution, but juries determine intent all
the time.

BLReed

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On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:08:06 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

I think I just may. I can see no argument, simple or complex, that would
result in forcing someone to bid on something at an auction.

In a true bidding pool the each bidder has already stated his intended bid.
The law regards this as a legal bid even though it was off the floor. The
pool is acting as the agent of every member of the pool.

The same thing goes with legitimate bidder's agents. If an agent holds two
bids over the hammer price on the floor HE MUST inform the auctioneer of
this and adjust the hammer price upward to one increment higher than the
agent's penultimate bid.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
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"Byron L. Reed" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:08:06 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

I think I just may. I can see no argument, simple or complex, that would
result in forcing someone to bid on something at an auction.

In a true bidding pool the each bidder has already stated his intended
bid.
The law regards this as a legal bid even though it was off the floor. The
pool is acting as the agent of every member of the pool.

The same thing goes with legitimate bidder's agents. If an agent holds
two
bids over the hammer price on the floor HE MUST inform the auctioneer of
this and adjust the hammer price upward to one increment higher than the
agent's penultimate bid.


The whole concept seems odd to me. In the end, the only harm is that
someone's items got lower bids than if no pool existed, yet there is no way
to determine that anyone would have bid higher on any particular item, so
just what harm can be proven?

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:03:26 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

yet there is no way
to determine that anyone would have bid higher on any particular item, so
just what harm can be proven?

In a pool situation there is a way to assess harm because the members of
the pool tell each other what they are willing to bid beforehand. As you
say, the difficulty is proving it. It usually requires either an insider
fessing up, a list of pool bids, or a bidding pattern. For example, it
would be very unlikely that no member of a group of any ten dealers EVER
bid against another of the group.

It's about as tough as proving the gas station and hoteliers collude in
their pricing.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
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"note.boy" wrote:

I would think that it would be near impossible prosecute collectors for
operating a bidding ring, i.e. agreeing not to bid against each other,
as obtaining proof would be difficult, but it might be easier against a
ring of dealers as a pattern may be easier to detect and prove.

Does anyone know of any prosecutions for operating bidding rings?

A search of the US Department of Justice website for "auction +collusion"
returned 178 hits. Here are several press releases regarding charges filed in
cases of bidding rings in currency and stamp auctions:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/S...5/471.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...1996/475at.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/April95/196.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_363.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_372.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/April/02_at_228.htm

British stamp dealer charged in US:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/May/02_at_321.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/January/02_at_045.htm

I don't remember any in the UK but there may have been.

Earlier I tried a Google web search for "auction +collusion" and noticed a
number of UK based websites discussing the topic.



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

"Byron L. Reed" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 21:03:26 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

yet there is no way
to determine that anyone would have bid higher on any particular item, so
just what harm can be proven?

In a pool situation there is a way to assess harm because the members of
the pool tell each other what they are willing to bid beforehand. As you
say, the difficulty is proving it. It usually requires either an insider
fessing up, a list of pool bids, or a bidding pattern. For example, it
would be very unlikely that no member of a group of any ten dealers EVER
bid against another of the group.

It's about as tough as proving the gas station and hoteliers collude in
their pricing.

Its tough to claim collusion in gas station prices when they all announce
their prices to the world with huge signs.


BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php