France 1864 cover to Lisbon

A friend and I are puzzling over a pair of covers from France to
Portugal in the early 1860s. Maury lists a 60 centimes rate to
Portugal on a “batiment de commerce,” which I interpret to be a tramp
steamer. But these covers are franked with only 20 centimes.

One of the covers is shown at: http://cjoint.com/?0kFsgKBwbLY

What caused the apparently under-franked cover to be delivered a mere
six days later in Lisbon?

Thinking that it might have some bearing on the question, I copied and
cleaned-up a hand-stamped 240, which I suspect is a notice to the
recipient of a specific amount due to receive the letter. The 240 is
shown to the lower left of the cover.

And help would be appreciated.

Stan, napoleon at voyager dot net

Victor Manta wrote :

Stan,

I have asked your question in the French Usenet philatelic group FRP.
Will post here again if there is an answer.


Thanks Victor : I was also going to transfer the question on
news:fr.rec.philatelie


I can suppose that the French permanents here are still tired after
their meetings at a philatelic exhibition, in Champerret :-)



Noooooooooooo !!!!

This exhibition (and meetings amongst participants to
news:fr.rec.philatelie ) will occur only at the end of this week
(from November 4th to 7th).

Victor : you are very welcome to meet and/or have lunch with us one of
these days !

You know that it would take you just 3 hours to come from Switzerland to
Paris :-)


--
All the best,
Pierre Courtiade

to answer me, please replace NOSPAM by my family name

Le 01/11/2010 12:07, Victor Manta a écrit :

I think that it would be a good idea to have some echoes about them on RCSD
too, even if, or because it is much more difficult for the worldwide
participants in this NG to follow the example of our French colleagues.

Hi. Especially as Pierre can arrange for limousines picking up everybody
at Charles-de-Gaulle airport, then for a night in a center Paris 5
-stars hotel (he tells me he cannot ensure any feminine company,
though), limousine again to the show place, huge 50% discounts at the
dealers shops, french-style cuisine for lunch with a large choice of
vintage wines, and so on. There is also a social event (Formal dressing
please), the gathering is at the underground station "Porte de
Champerret" on Friday, 20:00

--
Best regards, Bruno
Please do not take that crap at first degree.

Le 01/11/2010 13:17, Victor Manta a écrit :

Very tempting indeed. As for the missing company, there are always the Crazy
Horses, I suppose. On stamps it is he

http://tinyurl.com/3yb5our

Err... :-(

Indeed, I forgot to mention the most appealing feature of this stamp
show: The main invited P.O. is SNA (Spanish North Africa), with several
special issues to figure (probably very difficult to find later).

I will get back only half a (SNA) dinar for ten worth sold, so please
consider this message as purely non commercial. Just useful info.

--
Best regards, Bruno

Hi Stan,


Reading the " French postage rates " and hoping not to make a mistake,
sending a letter by Spain towards Portugal seems impossible to be
completly Postage Paid.
The postage rates of July 15th, 1849, did not plan the franking for
letters by way of Spain. In 1856, only the postage until the French
border could be paid with 20 c (postage rates of 04/01/1856). This
postage rates were still paplicable in 1864.

It is strange that the post office do not use the handstamp " PF
" (Port payé jusqu’à la Frontiè Postage paid Until the Border), but
the stamp PP ( Port Payé: Postage Paid).
In fact, it explains part the fact that the franking until the border,
was not really optional. The post office employees had to insist with
the private individuals on the fact of franking the letter.
See extract from the Post Monthly Bulletin of March, 1856.
http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/14/99/59/57/portug10.jpg

Translation:

Mars 1856. — 297 — Month. Bull. n° 7.

Instead of being sent without preliminary postage, as wanted the 1st
article of the presidential order of June 27th, 1849 (Circular n° 13,
of June 29th, 1849, page 5) sent by France and by Algeria for
Portugal, by the way of Spain, must, at the end of the 1st article of
the decree of February 16th, be always franked until the border of
exit of France.
I recommend very expressly to the directors to become known to the
public, by all the means which are in to be able to them, in
particular by the posters that they will receive with the present
circular, that it is indispensable to frank the correspondences to
Portugal.
It is naturally that these not franked correspondences sent in
Portugal, which would be found in mailboxes past 31 of present March,
will fall under the application of articles 662 and 671 of the General
Instruction.
The postage tax to be perceived by virtue of the decree of February
16th, for any letter of 7.5 g weight and below, to Portugal, is fixed
to 20 centimes. The tax of letters weighing more than 7.5 g grams must
be established according to the board of (weight)progress n° 1196.
The postage tax of newspapers, periodicals, leaflets, catalogs,
announcements and printed or lithographed diverse notices must be
perceived at the rate of five centimes by forty grams or forty gram
fraction, according to the value of the bases of taxation applicable
to printed matters for the outside (additional Bulletin n° 4 of
December, 1855, pages 195 and 196).
The correspondences of all kinds franked for Portugal will have to
carry, on the address, the imprint in red ink of the handstamp P P.
This imprint must be affixed by the post office of origin.
The French exchange office will apply to the address of letters,
newspapers and the other printed matters, sent by Portugal to France
and Algeria, figures indicating the taxes that the addressees of these
objects will have to pay.
The decree of last February 16th repeals quite those of the measures
of the presidential order of June 27th, 1849, which are relative to
letters, newspapers, periodicals and other printed matters from or to
Portugal, but it modifies in noway the conditions of sending and taxes
applicable to the objects from or in destination either from Spain
and from its neighboring islands, or from Gibraltar.
The correspondences of all kinds from or to Spain, Balearic Islands,
the Canarian Islands and Gibraltar, will thus continue to be treated
according to the measures of the circular of my predecessor; of June
29th, 1849, n° 13, and of my circular n° 49. (Monthly Bulletin n° 3,
in November, 1855, page 57).

Member of the Council of State.
Chief Executive Officer of the Post Office.
Stourm.”

Hope this will help.
Emmanuel.
http://losanges.chiffres.pagesperso-...fr/page1a.html

On Nov 4, 12:22*pm, vals59 wrote:
Hi Stan,

Reading the " French postage rates " and hoping not to make a mistake,
sending a letter by Spain towards Portugal seems impossible to be
completly Postage Paid.
The postage rates of July 15th, 1849, did not plan the franking for
letters by way of Spain. In 1856, only the postage until the French
border could be paid with 20 c (postage rates of *04/01/1856). This
postage rates were still paplicable in 1864.

It is strange that the post office do not use the handstamp " PF
" (Port payé jusqu’à la Frontiè Postage paid Until the Border), but
the stamp PP ( Port Payé: Postage Paid).
In fact, it explains part the fact that the franking until the border,
was not really optional. The post office employees had to insist with
the private individuals on the fact of franking the letter.
See extract from the Post Monthly Bulletin *of March, 1856.http://i69.servimg.com/u/f69/14/99/59/57/portug10.jpg

Translation:

Mars 1856. * * *— 297 — * * Month. Bull. n° 7.

Instead of being sent without preliminary postage, as wanted the 1st
article of the presidential order of June 27th, 1849 (Circular n° 13,
of June 29th, 1849, page 5) sent by France and by Algeria for
Portugal, by the way of Spain, must, at the end of the 1st article of
the decree of February 16th, be always franked until the border of
exit of France.
I recommend very expressly to the directors to become known to the
public, by all the means which are in to be able to them, in
particular by the posters that they will receive with the present
circular, that it is indispensable to frank the correspondences to
Portugal.
It is naturally that these not franked correspondences sent in
Portugal, which would be found in mailboxes past 31 of present March,
will fall under the application of articles 662 and 671 of the General
Instruction.
The postage tax to be perceived by virtue of the decree of February
16th, for any letter of 7.5 g weight and below, to Portugal, is fixed
to 20 centimes. The tax of letters weighing more than 7.5 g grams must
be established according to the board of (weight)progress n° 1196.
The postage tax of newspapers, periodicals, leaflets, catalogs,
announcements and printed or lithographed diverse notices must be
perceived at the rate of five centimes by forty grams or forty gram
fraction, according to the value of the bases of taxation applicable
to printed matters for the outside (additional Bulletin n° 4 of
December, 1855, pages 195 and 196).
The correspondences of all kinds franked for Portugal will have to
carry, on the address, the imprint in red ink of the handstamp P P.
This imprint must be affixed by the post office of origin.
The French exchange office will apply to the address of letters,
newspapers and the other printed matters, sent by Portugal to France
and Algeria, figures indicating the taxes that the addressees of these
objects will have to pay.
The decree of last February 16th repeals quite those of the measures
of the presidential order of June 27th, 1849, which are relative to
letters, newspapers, periodicals *and other printed matters from or to
Portugal, but it modifies in noway the conditions of sending and taxes
applicable to the objects *from or in destination either from Spain
and from its neighboring islands, or from Gibraltar.
The correspondences of all kinds from or to Spain, Balearic Islands,
the Canarian Islands and Gibraltar, will thus continue to be treated
according to the measures of the circular of my predecessor; of June
29th, 1849, n° 13, and of my circular n° 49. *(Monthly Bulletin n° 3,
in November, 1855, page 57).

Member of the Council of State.
Chief Executive Officer of the Post Office.
Stourm.”

Hope this will help.
Emmanuel.http://losanges.chiffres.pagesperso-...fr/page1a.html

Emmanuel and all others--thanks and merci.

My conclusion is that until 1866, letters sent to Portugal overland
(hence via Spain) had to be franked with the appropriate French
domestic postage. The recipient paid for delivery from the Spanish/
French border to the address in Portugal. The two letters my friend
and I have were sent overland and the 240 hand-stamp represents what
the recipient had to pay to receive them.

Stan