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Collecting experience



 
 
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Old February 20th 10, 08:13 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Collecting experience

This year marks exactly ten years of my beginning coin collecting again.
Time for a retrospective, some analysis. Read at your own risk. This
will be long (winded). Consider this post a medium-length magazine
article, though more personal and less focused. Though this includes
some dealer criticism, and some dealers may consider it anti-dealer, it
also includes some dealer praise, and I consider it, overall,
pro-dealer, pro-collector, and pro-numismatics. This may be a prelude to
something else, or not. An earlier version of this, dealing almost
entirely with ancient coins, appeared elsewhere.

During the summer of 2000 I found myself standing over a bowl of Indian
Head cents and another of Buffalo nickels. I had been invited to give a
talk about the Internet at a national marketing convention in
Scottsdale, Arizona. I wrote and still write a nationally syndicated
newspaper/magazine column about computers and the Internet, and before
this I wrote a book about the future of the Internet, which was used
among other places in some college classrooms during the 13 minutes in
which it was still up to date.

While in Scottsdale, my wife, kids, and I visited the Buffalo Museum of
America. Mesmerized, I stood over these VG and G cents and nickels, the
cents priced at $1 each, the nickels at $2 each. Like many collectors
today I collected as a kid, U.S. type coins for me while my best friend
at the time worked on Whitman sets, before like many I gave up
collecting for other things. In this little museum, almost exactly 30
years later, I couldn't take my eyes of these beat-up old coins. I
bought one Indian Head cent and one Buffalo nickel. Total outlay: $3.
What possible harm could this lead to?

At the end of that summer the ANA had its big national show in
Philadelphia, close to us. OK, I'll go. First day I bought the most
affordable nice enough coin I could find having a date beginning with
the numbers 17. I couldn't afford a 1798 large cent when I was a kid.
The next day I bought a 1908 no-motto Saint, feeling genuinely guilty
about the money I was spending.

It was all downhill from there. This Saint quickly led me to what I
regarded and still regard as the most fabulous of all U.S. coins, Bust
dollars with heraldic eagle reverses. The 1804 dollar is considered the
"king" of American coins not only because of its rarity and the
circumstances surrounding its minting but also, I'd contend, because of
the beauty of its design, and the 1798 to 1903 heraldic eagle Bust
dollars have all the beauty without the stratospheric priceyness.

I went fairly crazy with Bust dollars, creating several sets of these
fairly big-ticket items, then wound up buying and selling for profit,
playing dealer, buying what I regarded as undervalued Bust dollars at
national and local coin shows as well as through eBay and selling
entirely through eBay, doing well. My column at the time was being
published among other places in AirTran's in-flight magazine, before
AirTran switched publishers, and as payment here I received free
airfare, so I wound up going not only to the NY Int'l and Baltimore
shows by car and train but also by plane to the F.U.N. show and Chicago
Int'l each year. In retrospect I probably should have also gone to a few
Long Beach shows, but I didn't want to take advantage.

I also began going backward in time, before the onset of U.S. coinage.
The further back I looked the more interesting it seemed. All other
things being equal, old is more interesting, but all other things aren't
equal. Ancient coins, particularly ancient Greek coins, are considered
by many today, myself included, as the most beautiful of all coins,
though some modern U.S. and world coins give the Greeks a, well, run for
their money. Ancient coins also have some terribly interesting history,
with science, democracy, western philosophy, and the entire western way
of life having its origins in ancient Greece. Rome copied Greece, and
the founding fathers of the U.S. copied Rome.

So I wound up focusing mostly on ancient Greek coins, more engaging to
me in general than Roman coins. Just as Rome copied Greece with
mythology, philosophy, science, architecture, and so on, it also copied
Greek coins, only made them in general smaller, more often debased, and
less attractive artistically. Rome also made the same mistake the U.S.
has made over the past hundred years or so, in my view, by using human
portraits as primary, obverse devices rather than more imaginative and
inspirational symbolic or mythological figures.

Greek coins were fantastic. I began specializing in discrete areas --
Alexander the Great, Athenian Owls, pre-Greek Lydian electrum, etc., 21
Greek-era areas in all, as of right now. I've also elected to focus on
three Roman areas and several later areas, including English pennies
through the centuries, Pieces of Eight and other Age of Exploration
trade coins, Bust dollars, Saints, and a whacky set of holed U.S. types
coins that I'm able to acquire for under $10 each (still looking for a
holed Presidential dollar, if anybody comes across one).

I've tried going deep in each area, soaking up as many journal articles
and books as I could along with the coins, and still do. The acquisition
of knowledge for me is just as enjoyable as the acquisition of coins,
and I've spent many enjoyable hours at the libraries of the ANS and the
University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, near
me. The ANA library has also been a good resource for me, as has Ted
Buttrey, the well-respected numismatist and all-around good guy from the
mother ship who has graciously put up with my disagreeableness about his
thinking on Egyptian Owls.

Fairly early on in beginning to collect again, however, I got caught up
again in what partly led me to quit coin collecting back as a teenager.
I got sucked in by the inevitable pull toward greed and deception. I
suppose this is something that everybody who collects, and even more so
everybody who deals, has to wrestle with, more or less. How honest will
you be? By honest I'm referring not only to the accuracy of the
information you knowingly communicate -- errors of commission -- but
also whether you communicate all the relevant information you know --
errors of omission.

With me, with one particular eBay sale, I withheld information when
selling a Bust dollar, not disclosing in full how I believed the
surfaces looked in hand. I had been asked by someone who turned out to
be the winning bidder if I saw anything that my fairly revealing photo
didn't reveal. The surfaces of this raw, unslabbed coin were pretty
rough, with excessive porosity for a coin of this type (I hadn't paid
much it), appearing this way more so with the coin in hand than in the
photo. I felt bad about not fully disclosing this, saying instead
something, which I don't recall exactly, that only approached full
disclosure. The buyer didn't return the piece or complain. But he left
no feedback either, positive or negative. I knew he must have known that
I didn't disclose what I knew.

Granted, this was far from the worst of numismatic sins, and I know that
many dealers inevitably do similar things as part of making a living
through dealing. You put coins in the best possible light, figuratively
and actually. Most dealers appear to adhere to the maxim that if asked,
you disclose, if not, you don't. But some, I know, don't even when
asked. In this particular case I didn't disclose either. On the other
hand, some dealers, even those at the top of the profession, don't
disclose what they should, including serious concerns from reliable
sources, at times even the most respected museum and academic people in
the world, about the authenticity of expensive and sometimes very
expensive coins.

But mostly, I believe, the majority of coin dealers do the right thing
in the majority of cases, pulling questionable coins and describing
coins accurately, though forgery-detection skills, the use of
hyperbole/exaggeration, grading accuracy, and attribution accuracy vary
widely. Still, dealers as a whole can be trusted as a reliable means of
building an enjoyable collection, as I've said many times.

The old saw in numismatics very much applies, that to better protect
yourself from fakes you should buy from reputable and knowledgeable
dealers, even if this protection is not or could ever be ironclad or
foolproof and even if having your own expertise provides additional
protection in itself. Dealers are still indispensable, today, in the age
of the Internet when collectors can easily buy and sell to one another
directly. Because they handle so many coins, the sharpest coin dealers
will be better at coin authentication than the sharpest collectors or
academics ... provided the inevitable self-interest doesn't excessively
cloud their perceptions. Dealers are also very good at making markets --
bringing sellers and buyers together.

I don't want to give too much weight to my little guilt trip over this
one incident of nondisclosure, since a number of other factors were and
are involved in my attitudes and decisions about numismatics. I respect
the profession of coin dealing as I respect the category of retailing in
general. My mother's father owned a small retail hardware store for some
60 years, and when in high school I helped out there one summer. I've
also spent a little time selling at computer swap shows, which are
similar to large coin shows in that you stand behind a table, your wares
in front of you, trying to sell to those who stop at your table.

So coin dealing turned out not to be for me. I stopped selling on my own
for profit, though since then I have offloaded coins on occasion when
cleaning out dupes, extraneous material, and coins in areas I thought I
would specialize in but never did, selling to or through dealers.

This episode of nondisclosure did, however, lead me deeper into what I
regard as the single most engaging area of numismatics, something I've
talked about a lot, I know: Truth vs. falsity. Sure, the aesthetic
beauty of coins is fantastic, their history is engaging, the challenge
of finding want-list items and landing deals is entertaining, the
sharing of acquisitions and stories about them is fun, all the rest. But
nothing, to me, tops truth vs. falsity.

This dialectic of truth and falsity plays itself out in numerous ways in
numismatics, but two in my view are primal: 1) The dispersal of new
finds of ancient coins (and artifacts) into collections, and 2)
Forgeries of all types.

The issues involving new finds of ancient coins, provenance, and
cultural patrimony aren't black-and-white. The position taken by some
who are leading this battle in numismatics is as extreme, I believe, as
the position taken by some in the archeological community, only in the
opposite direction. With the situation that has existed for many
decades, hoard and findspot information that could significantly enhance
our knowledge of ancient coins and ancient history isn't disclosed, and
false information is sometimes put out to avoid tipping off authorities
in source countries with irrational laws that treat the commonest coins
the same as the Elgin Marbles. Many ancient coins reach the market from
prior collections, sometimes very old collections, but many are recently
dug up. With the exception of some countries with rational laws such as
the UK, laws in source countries are inevitably broken as new finds
leave those countries.

From the right perspective, fakes of all coins, ancient to modern, are
fun, not something to either run away from out of fear or put your head
in the sand over in trying to ignore. All the evidence I've seen
indicates that fakes are far more of a presence in the ancient than the
modern coin market despite one ancient dealer comment I've read online
that fakes of modern coins are more prevalent. All the evidence I've
seen also indicates that the number of honest deals involving authentic
ancient coins dwarfs the number of fraudulent deals involving fakes sold
as authentic, same as, with modern coins, the number of honest deals
dwarfs the number of deals involving doctored, overgraded, or otherwise
misdescribed coins.

Fakes challenge you to learn, to probe, to question your assumptions and
those of others. They can inspire you to look very closely, with the
naked eye as well as with magnification aids such as a stereo
microscope. Forgeries make coins more intellectually engaging. They can
be interesting in what they reveal, and they can be interesting in
themselves, examples of the black art of deception. Fakes make the
authentic coins in your collection even more appealing. Finally, and
perhaps most importantly, studying counterfeits in hand, even more so
than online, can hone your counterfeit-detection skills, along with
studying authentic coins in hand and online.

I've found that some also feel this way about fakes. I've found that
others feel differently. They regard counterfeits as just junk that
should be destroyed or handed over to the authorities, never to see the
light of day again. I personally regard as intriguing the criminality
that inevitably exists in numismatics. Others feel that dark side of
numismatics is unseemly, and they want nothing to do with it. Similarly
some people like crime novels and detective TV shows, and others don't.

My thinking about counterfeit coins is the same as that of Red Book
editor and former ANA president Kenneth Bressett, who created a video
that any ANA member can borrow titled "Famous Fakes and Fakers" in which
he talks about forgeries of coins through the ages that are "true
numismatic items" and are "enjoyable to study and collect." The
legalities of owning counterfeits, as I've explored in great depth, are
unsettled. I'm not a lawyer, but the best legal opinion I've read from a
lawyer is that there's nothing in the statutory or case law in the U.S.
that makes it illegal to possess coin counterfeits provided you don't
intend to deceive others with them.

There are lots of different kinds of coin copies, and each can be an
interesting counterpart to the authentic. Whether you're looking at an
contemporaneous counterfeit, contemporaneous imitative, contemporaneous
derivative, recent forgery, recent replica, or recent coin, medal, or
token based on or paying tribute to the original coin design, each is a
variation on a theme. Not all copies, of course, are meant as deceptions.

As a little exercise in evaluating my ten years of collecting, I just
analyzed my current collection and my past activities. It was both fun
and illuminating. Try it, you'll like it. g Under "real" below I'm
including authentic official coins as well as unofficial legal-tender
imitatives. Under "copy" below I'm including contemporaneous and recent
counterfeits/forgeries (I use these two words synonymously) as well as
replicas, medals, tokens, commemorative coins, etc., that are based on
earlier coins. Others enjoy collecting them, but with U.S. coins I stay
away from counterfeits and instead collect replicas and medals, tokens,
and so on based on the original design, as well as, needless to say, the
originals, or "real."

My collection, as of this moment: Ancient coins: 337 real, 276 copy.
U.S. coins: 83 real, 53 copy. Modern world coins: 21 real, 9 copy.
Medieval/early modern coins: 11 real, 16 copy. Chinese coins (ancient to
modern): 11 real, 10 copy. I know others have more coins or nicer coins
-- this is a taking-stock exercise, not an exercise in vanity. I've had
fun buying from different types of sources, including but not limited to
fancy-catalog auctioneers in person, over the phone, and online; smaller
boutique-style online dealers; volume eBay dealers; large national coin
shows; small local coin shows; local coin shops; and fellow collectors.
I never went metal detecting in source countries for ancient coins or
treasure hunting for coins on sunken ships, but I fantasized about this. g

Also during this past decade, in terms of taking stock, I've written
five articles for the Celator magazine (one of which won a
best-of-the-year award from the Numismatic Literary Guild), five book
reviews for the Celator, and one article each for the Numismatist, the
Journal of the Classical and Medieval Numismatic Society, COINage,
Coins, and Coin World. No peer-reviewed articles and no books, yet. I
don't know, actually, if I'll try to go further in this direction.

I've also put up more or less comprehensive Web sites about a number of
different coin areas. And I've spent lots of time, at times too much
time, in various online discussion groups, asking questions, sharing
information and experiences, and debating. Lots of debating. These
groups for me have primarily included RCC, Moneta-L, FORVM,
Ancients.info, and CFDL.

Before one of them moved away, I used to enjoy meeting on a near monthly
basis for lunch with two fellow collectors after a local monthly coin
show, and I've had lots of good discussions with dealers at big coins
shows. During most of the past decade I've driven the 2-1/2 hours to and
from the Baltimore show two or three times every year with a coin dealer
buddy, a devout Roman Catholic who has wrestled for 30 years with the
ethical dilemmas involved in coin dealing and from whom I've gotten
valuable insights into the inner workings of the numismatic trade. This
dealer sells all types of coins, U.S., world, medieval, byzantine, and
ancient.

Though I find truth vs. falsity the most intriguing issue in
numismatics, I find as the most enjoyable activity what I've described
as the "glom." With the background information in your head that you've
uncovered through your research, you seize upon a coin with your eyes,
marveling at its physicality, the beauty or quirkiness of its design,
strike, and state of preservation, following the coin's lines and
curves, its raised devices and depressed fields, tilting the coin for
different perspectives on the pristine or worn surfaces, awed by the
light's aesthetic revelations of how the metal was shaped and how it has
interacted with its environment over what's often a very long time.

It can be fun impressing others with your acquisitions and being
impressed by the acquisitions of others. But I find it's even more fun
impressing myself. My three most awesome coins: 1) c. 600 BC Lydian Lion
electrum trite, Weidauer Type 15, with a charming and aesthetically
archaic roaring lion design, a coin type I had much fun building a case
for being the world's first, a piece I was so excited about winning
through a CNG printed auction that I drove the two hours from my house
to CNG to pick it up in person, 2) 2nd century BC Colchian debased gold
imitative of an Alexander the Great stater, with fantastically
abstracted iconography and impossibly raised rims, a coin I had
metallurgically analyzed (75.73 percent gold, 21.11 percent silver, 1.49
percent copper, 1.43 percent iron, 0.24 percent nickel, according to
energy dispersive spectroscopy), a piece I won through a Gorny & Mosch
auction, and 3) 1799 U.S. Draped Bust dollar, graded AU-53 by PCGS, with
"hyperoriginal" surfaces, the toning as beautiful as the image of Miss
Liberty, a coin I got an amazing deal on, buying it on eBay in an old
PCGS holder with an EF-40 grade on it from a coin dealer in Timonium,
Maryland, knowing it was undergraded, underpriced, and underappreciated.

One numismatic activity that has also been a lot of fun for me is giving
ancient coins away. I buy cleaned but unattributed late Roman bronzes
from pick bins at major coin shows for this purpose, in nice enough
condition to see clearly both obverse and reverse types. I keep one
attributed in a safety flip in my wallet at all times, and if I happen
to be discussing coins with someone, and the person doesn't yawn, I'll
reach into my wallet and give away the coin, explaining it's not
terribly expensive only terribly interesting.

I've gotten the best reactions when giving away ancient coins from kids
but also appreciation from adults. Only once, with my accountant, did
anyone refuse the gift. I'm guessing he was thinking I expected
something in return. I've given 34 of these away over the past decade,
to my handyman, bank branch manager, dentist, kids' pediatrician,
barber, optician, cleaning lady, next-door neighbor, friends and
relatives, children of friends, and friends of children. I keep my stuff
in a safe deposit box, and talk about this, so I'm not worried about
spreading the word to the wrong ears and possibly being burglarized.

Through my little taking-stock exercise, what I was most surprised to
discover, though I probably shouldn't have been, was that I had as a
part of my collection 276 ancient and modern fakes and other copies of
ancient coins. This isn't as many as the number of authentic ancient
coins I have but nonetheless represents a sizeable investment in time. I
may have still other fakes, which I currently regard as authentic. g
If so not many, I don't believe.

Acquiring these has been a challenge, more so with outright forgeries
than other copies. My focus again has been on ancients. The best
theoretical approach to acquiring fakes of ancient coins is the one that
has worked for me the least. You ask for them from dealers who
inevitably and inadvertently acquire them from group buys, where they
buy a collection from a collector or heir or a large group of new finds
from a middleman at or outside a show, without the time to closely
evaluate every coin, and get stuck with, say, a couple of fakes in the
group.

Such fakes typically get thrown in a bag, never to see the light of day
again. Why not put them to good use, helping with the counterfeit
education effort?

The reality is that relatively few dealers will part with fakes. If they
don't know you, they may suspect you'll turn around and try to sell them
as authentic. But mostly, I believe, dealers feel that the publication
of fakes draws attention to the counterfeit problem and has the
potential of causing at least some collectors to drop out of the hobby
or some potential collectors to stay away from it. Also, some dealers
appear to exhibit a guild mentality, wanting to retain for themselves
the specialized knowledge of forgery detection so collectors feel they
need to buy from dealers rather than from fellow collectors. In a sense,
one sense, all this is understandable.

Whatever the cause, very few counterfeits in relationship to the
universe of known counterfeits get published in print. Dealer opposition
to counterfeit publication is the main reason, I believe, that the
Bulletin on Counterfeits/Counterfeit Coin Bulletin is no longer
published, though other factors are involved too. There's demand out
there, I believe, among collectors for vetted information about
forgeries from experts, beyond the amateurishness you often see online.

There are exceptions to the above among some dealers. Regarding ancient
coins, Wayne Sayles published a small number of ancient coin forgeries
in his excellent book on the history of ancient coin counterfeiting,
Classical Deception (I'm not factoring in here the catalog of Rosa
replicas in his appendix). David Hendin has also published some really
good material on counterfeit education. Regarding U.S. coins, PCGS has
published some really good material in its book Coin Grading and
Counterfeit Detection. There are a fair number of other books out there
as well on counterfeit U.S., world, and other coins, along with articles
in coin magazines and journals.

But mostly it's non-dealers who have done the most publishing,
particularly with ancient coins, led in print by the Bulgarian scholar
Ilya Prokopov and online by collectors. To be fair, a few dealers, as
well as collectors, have put up on their Web sites some good information
on counterfeit detection, in particular the dealers who run various
online forums. The Web site ForgeryNetwork.com can also be helpful. I'm
a big proponent of the knowledge is power school. The knowledge gained
through the dissemination of information about forgeries trumps the
potential negatives.

I've obtained a few ancient coin forgeries, offered as forgeries, from
dealers. Some have been donated, and here's another big thanks for that.
Dealers who share fakes, like dealers who share information, are giving
of themselves. I'll still say, despite this being disputed by one
strangely shortsighted collector, that dealers who do this deserve both
kudos and patronage. Unfortunately, as I said, dealers who do this are
the exception. I've gotten no's or been ignored far more often than I've
gotten cooperation. My own experience is far from unique.

Though some disagree, I don't believe there's anything wrong with
dealers selling forgeries for what they are. A fair number of dealers
and auctioneers openly sell or have sold forgeries as forgeries, for
what they are, on eBay and at big coin shows, of coins of all types,
from U.S. to ancient. Typically, not always, these are lesser known
dealers. But some of the most respected fancy printed-catalog auction
houses sell coin forgeries as forgeries. These are sometimes
contemporaneous counterfeits that circulated with the authentic coins,
with U.S. Bust halves being popular. Other times they're big-name
forgeries designed to fool collectors that were made in previous
centuries -- Paduans, Paduan restrikes, Beckers, Becker restrikes, etc.

The best forgery acquisitions in my experience are trades and donations.
I've acquired a number of ancient coin forgeries in trades from fellow
collectors who either acquired them knowingly as forgeries or bought
them as authentic and got stuck with them. In some cases I've traded
replicas or other copies, in other cases lower value authentic ancient
coins. In still other cases collectors have agreed to part with
forgeries they got stuck with so I could study and publish them, helping
others avoid getting taken, for a small fee or as a donation. And here's
another big thanks for this.

I'm always open to trades. If anybody reading this has ancient coin
forgeries they can part with, I can email you a list of ancient coin
forgeries and replicas I have that aren't in areas I currently
specialize in or are dupes for me.

Here are some of the items on my ancient coins black cabinet want list
(some of these actually are replicas):

* Toronto forgery of Augustus Caius and Lucius denarius (RIC 212)
* Toronto forgery of Octavian trophy on prow denarius (cast, worn Slavey
replica)
* Christodoulou forgery of Owl and Alexander tet and stater
* Costodoulos ("British Museum Forger" or "Galvano Boys") forgery of Owl
and Alexander tet and stater
* Bulgarian School forgery of Julian II bull AE-1 (documented in two of
Prokopov's books)
* Bulgarian School forgery of Thasos satyr and nymph early classical stater
* Bulgarian School forgery of Thracian tetradrachm (barbarized Thasos
Dionysos/Herakles tetradrachm) from empire_gallery or vergina**
* Bulgarian School forgery of Istros inverted heads stater from
empire_gallery or vergina**
* Robert Ready British Museum electrotype replica of Owl and Alexander tet
* Slavey replica of Octovian trophy on prow denarius (RIC 265a)
* Slavey replica of classical Owl
* Apollonians replica of archaic Owl, classical Owl, Alexander tet,
Lysimachos tet, and Thasos satyr and nymph stater
* Rosa replica of Lysimachos Alexander-portrait tetradrachm (Sayles 89)

The legalities surrounding coin copies are also interesting. The U.S.
Hobby Protection Act specifies that coin copies made in the U.S. or
imported into the U.S. since the law's passage in 1973 should be marked
as such on the obverse or reverse. It doesn't prohibit the sale or
purchase of unmarked copies once made or imported. What's more, as I
understand it, this law has never been enforced. I'm happy to be
corrected about this, if anyone knows differently. As far as I know the
only difference the Hobby Protection Act has made is that coin magazines
stopped accepting ads for unmarked replicas.

The gift shops of some U.S. historical sites sell cast underweight
pewter replicas, with large casting pits and extremely mushy details, of
Pieces of Eight, Lion dollars, and similar coins that aren't marked with
"COPY" or a similar mark, the manufacture of which appears to be in
direct violation of the Hobby Protection Act. Chinese counterfeiters put
up large numbers of marked replicas of U.S. and world coins, and
according to my sources and my own inquiries, they'll sell to anyone who
asks the same copies without a "COPY" mark. I've seen in hand several of
these loaned to me by collectors who knowingly bought them to see what
the Chinese forgery workshops were putting out. Thanks again for this.

I've done one comprehensive study of U.S. coin counterfeits,
specifically Bust dollars. I acquired a fair number of fakes of Bust
dollars, mostly on loan from collectors and dealers. I first sent them
to a senior numismatist at ANACS for his professional opinion, then to a
university professor for metallurgical testing. I wrote an article for
Coins magazine about this and afterward put up a Web page. Many thanks
again to those who made these works of deception available to me and who
otherwise helped with this project.

I've done six comprehensive studies of ancient coin counterfeits, of
Athenian Owls, Alexander the Great tetradrachms, Apollonia Pontika
drachms, Parion hemidrachms, Cherronesos hemidrachms, and Thasos and
Thracian tetradrachms, with this material appearing both in print and on
the Web.

Though this isn't the reason I do it, I've appreciated the thanks I've
received, mostly through email, from the ... without exaggeration ...
many hundreds of people who indicated I prevented from becoming a victim
of forgery and other fraud over the past decade involving ancient as
well as U.S. coins.

So, that's ten years of collecting.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
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  #2  
Old February 20th 10, 03:31 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default Collecting experience

S N I P !!!!!


After overdosing on the morning newspaper analysis of the self-serving rants
of Tiger Woods and Evgeni Plushenko, I couldn't make it much beyond your
first paragraph. Is this just an exerpt from your full autobiography?
Maybe weekly installments might have worked better.


  #3  
Old February 20th 10, 03:38 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
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Posts: 1,169
Default Collecting experience


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
This year marks exactly ten years of my beginning coin collecting
again. Time for a retrospective, some analysis. Read at your own
risk. This will be long (winded). Consider this post a medium-length
magazine article, though more personal and less focused. Though this
includes some dealer criticism, and some dealers may consider it
anti-dealer, it also includes some dealer praise, and I consider it,
overall, pro-dealer, pro-collector, and pro-numismatics. This may be
a prelude to something else, or not. An earlier version of this,
dealing almost entirely with ancient coins, appeared elsewhere.

....

Before the inevitable, predictable flaming begins from some quarters
("long, boring, self-indulgent, self-serving, the usual Goldsborough
crap" etc.), let me first say that I found this interesting,
informative, and well written. I gained insights in a number of
areas, including some of those numismatic dark corners that we don't
always like to talk about. Many thanks for providing that
information.

However - you knew there'd be one - at 4,900 words not counting your
intro (rather more than a "medium-length" magazine piece), if I were
your editor here, I would have cut the opening je m' accuse section
that you later had tacked on top as a kind of antescript. UseNet
rec.x.x forums are mostly short-form platforms, so the shorter the
better even for long pieces. You ought to have spun that off into a
separate essay on coin ethics and dealers' mindsets, where it could
have and should have stood on its own here and elsewhere. The coin
type that was the object of your eBay deception was only a minor
player here, making your mea culpa TMI.

Furthermore, based on some past reactions to your posts, you
undoubtedly know that having thus exposed yourself, for some
unfriendly posters you have forever left yourself open to attack as "a
self-confessed eBay scammer". If one has a confessional that they
need to get off their chest, a UseNet forum like r.c.c. is not always
the wisest place to do so.

What I found intriguing was that you are largely intrigued by, and
know a lot about fakes - and mostly ancient ones at that. Most
serious collectors are "coin detectives" of one sort or another.
Whether it's just reading up on the history of a type, tracking down
every known date and mint mark of a series, or peering through a
magnifier for mint errors, there's a little bit of Sherlock Holmes in
all of us. Forgeries isn't an area that interests me at all; but it's
a legitimate area of study, serves a purpose to help others, and as
the minters of your ancient Roman specimens used to say, "De gustibus
non est disputandum."

Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.

- mazorj, Critic at Large


  #4  
Old February 20th 10, 04:21 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Collecting experience

mazorj wrote:
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
This year marks exactly ten years of my beginning coin collecting
again. Time for a retrospective, some analysis. Read at your own
risk. This will be long (winded). Consider this post a medium-length
magazine article, though more personal and less focused. Though this
includes some dealer criticism, and some dealers may consider it
anti-dealer, it also includes some dealer praise, and I consider it,
overall, pro-dealer, pro-collector, and pro-numismatics. This may be
a prelude to something else, or not. An earlier version of this,
dealing almost entirely with ancient coins, appeared elsewhere.

...

Before the inevitable, predictable flaming begins from some quarters
("long, boring, self-indulgent, self-serving, the usual Goldsborough
crap" etc.), let me first say that I found this interesting,
informative, and well written. I gained insights in a number of
areas, including some of those numismatic dark corners that we don't
always like to talk about. Many thanks for providing that
information.

However - you knew there'd be one - at 4,900 words not counting your
intro (rather more than a "medium-length" magazine piece), if I were
your editor here, I would have cut the opening je m' accuse section
that you later had tacked on top as a kind of antescript. UseNet
rec.x.x forums are mostly short-form platforms, so the shorter the
better even for long pieces. You ought to have spun that off into a
separate essay on coin ethics and dealers' mindsets, where it could
have and should have stood on its own here and elsewhere. The coin
type that was the object of your eBay deception was only a minor
player here, making your mea culpa TMI.

Furthermore, based on some past reactions to your posts, you
undoubtedly know that having thus exposed yourself, for some
unfriendly posters you have forever left yourself open to attack as "a
self-confessed eBay scammer". If one has a confessional that they
need to get off their chest, a UseNet forum like r.c.c. is not always
the wisest place to do so.

What I found intriguing was that you are largely intrigued by, and
know a lot about fakes - and mostly ancient ones at that. Most
serious collectors are "coin detectives" of one sort or another.
Whether it's just reading up on the history of a type, tracking down
every known date and mint mark of a series, or peering through a
magnifier for mint errors, there's a little bit of Sherlock Holmes in
all of us. Forgeries isn't an area that interests me at all; but it's
a legitimate area of study, serves a purpose to help others, and as
the minters of your ancient Roman specimens used to say, "De gustibus
non est disputandum."

Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.


What I really want to hear is how he feels about the Breen Encyclopedia.
Wait, I seem to remember already hearing that.

James the Provocateur


  #5  
Old February 20th 10, 04:35 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
mazorj
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,169
Default Collecting experience


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
mazorj wrote:


....
Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.


What I really want to hear is how he feels about the Breen
Encyclopedia. Wait, I seem to remember already hearing that.

James the Provocateur


Speaking of "long form," that thread definitely qualified! It was,
um... encyclopedic.

- mazorj the Totalizer


  #6  
Old February 20th 10, 05:52 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 357
Default Collecting experience

On 2/20/2010 9:38 AM, mazorj wrote:

Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.


You guessed it. g It already has, led by Bruce Remick. He and the
others who post here most regularly, who live here, account for the
nature of this group, which has always been the case. Usenet is a
lowest-common-denominator phenomenon, with the loudest and most frequent
posters controlling things, bringing things down to their level. Usenet
has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any Internet communications medium.

My post generated, immediately, four responses that have zero content
dealing with the subject matter of the group, which my post dealt with,
or anything related to the content in my post, with your response
accurately predicting this. Another example: The most popular thread
here in recent weeks, by a huge amount, has been about the weather, with
186 messages in the "Snowy RCC?" thread. On target content-full posts
about numismatics, typically, get 2 to 5 responses, with exceptions.
Posts about the weather and politics get 186 and 79 responses. No wonder
Usenet in general and this group in particular have been in such
decline, that so many people have left, and that one ISP after another
has discontinued their Usenet feeds to subscribers.

What to make of this? I think it's a telling commentary about human
nature, about how, too often, things don't go optimally when people are
entirely left to their own devices. Lord of the Flies. Usenet has and
always has had FAQs and other attempts at guidance. But people ignore
them. Other Internet communications technologies do a better job of
reigning in.

This short analysis, naturally, will just lead to more of what you
previously predicted, flaming and nitpicking, with one utterly
predictable response being that I'm whining and another utterly
predictable one being, don't let the door hit your derriere on the way
out.You know, creative stuff. g Somebody thinking they're being
terribly clever will no doubt just ape these very words. If one person
leaves a substantive response, dealing with the subject matter that I
just addressed, I believe I just might fall off my chair. If one person
discusses anything related to numismatics as a result of my opening post
in this thread, I believe I just may have a coronary. Or not.

--

Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #7  
Old February 20th 10, 06:45 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default Collecting experience


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On 2/20/2010 9:38 AM, mazorj wrote:

Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.


You guessed it. g It already has, led by Bruce Remick. He and the others
who post here most regularly, who live here, account for the nature of
this group, which has always been the case. Usenet is a
lowest-common-denominator phenomenon, with the loudest and most frequent
posters controlling things, bringing things down to their level. Usenet
has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any Internet communications
medium.


I just couldn't resist g. You have this harsh opinion of Usenet, yet you
chose it to introduce your autobiography and views on life? g I've
seldom seen anyone so into himself. I'll bet you include inserts like this
in your holiday greeting cards, too. Kids in grade school must've loved you
on opening day when the teacher asked for essays on what each student did
over the summer. No one else had to get up in front of the class because
there would have been no time left. g


My post generated, immediately, four responses that have zero content
dealing with the subject matter of the group, which my post dealt with, or
anything related to the content in my post, with your response accurately
predicting this. Another example: The most popular thread here in recent
weeks, by a huge amount, has been about the weather, with 186 messages in
the "Snowy RCC?" thread. On target content-full posts about numismatics,
typically, get 2 to 5 responses, with exceptions. Posts about the weather
and politics get 186 and 79 responses. No wonder Usenet in general and
this group in particular have been in such decline, that so many people
have left, and that one ISP after another has discontinued their Usenet
feeds to subscribers.


You apparently have a warped idea of what generates noise in this group.
While you were composing and editing your treatise, a lot of people
apparently enjoyed playing in "snowy RCC" and other OT threads. Then you
pop up with your presumptious "What I did all my life and my views about
almost everything g" monster. If you believe so many people have left
RCC, why post stuff like that here if there are so few responsible people
left to read it. g


What to make of this? I think it's a telling commentary about human
nature, about how, too often, things don't go optimally when people are
entirely left to their own devices. Lord of the Flies. Usenet has and
always has had FAQs and other attempts at guidance. But people ignore
them. Other Internet communications technologies do a better job of
reigning in.


Thanks so much for for your insightful analysis. g


This short analysis, naturally, will just lead to more of what you
previously predicted, flaming and nitpicking, with one utterly predictable
response being that I'm whining and another utterly predictable one being,
don't let the door hit your derriere on the way out.You know, creative
stuff. g Somebody thinking they're being terribly clever will no doubt
just ape these very words. If one person leaves a substantive response,
dealing with the subject matter that I just addressed, I believe I just
might fall off my chair. If one person discusses anything related to
numismatics as a result of my opening post in this thread, I believe I
just may have a coronary. Or not.


Funny, I didn't see anything in your post here that has anything to do with
talking about coins. It was all about you again-- your views of RCC, the
people who frequent it, and those who mock or disagree with you. Maybe
you're actually coming around.

g






  #8  
Old February 20th 10, 07:36 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Collecting experience

Reid Goldsborough wrote:
On 2/20/2010 9:38 AM, mazorj wrote:

Let the flaming and numismatic nitpicking begin.


You guessed it. g It already has, led by Bruce Remick. He and the
others who post here most regularly, who live here, account for the
nature of this group, which has always been the case. Usenet is a
lowest-common-denominator phenomenon, with the loudest and most
frequent posters controlling things, bringing things down to their
level. Usenet has the lowest signal-to-noise ratio of any Internet
communications medium.


Yep, we're just a nest of vipers, lurking for the next victim who dares test
the waters with his big toe. Kind of like one Mr. Goldsborough occasionally
does, as he so aptly demonstrated some months ago when I, in my naiveté,
dared to make an on-topic post about a numismatic publication. Medice, cura
te ipsum.

My post generated, immediately, four responses that have zero content
dealing with the subject matter of the group, which my post dealt
with, or anything related to the content in my post, with your response
accurately predicting this. Another example: The most popular thread
here in recent weeks, by a huge amount, has been about the weather,
with 186 messages in the "Snowy RCC?" thread. On target content-full
posts about numismatics, typically, get 2 to 5 responses, with
exceptions. Posts about the weather and politics get 186 and 79 responses.
No
wonder Usenet in general and this group in particular have been in
such decline, that so many people have left, and that one ISP after
another
has discontinued their Usenet feeds to subscribers.


Well, search back through the archives and check posting history, and you
will find that OPs about coins attract extremely little traffic. Those of
us who sit around with nothing else to do but cry alone by our keyboards
have to then default to talking about the weather, politics, or religion.
The fact that you have counted 186 posts that you consider off-topic in the
Snowy RCC thread betrays your own secret interest in such things and have
actually read each and every one of them to present as evidence for your
proposition. BTW, I note that you haven't deigned to take part in any of
the recent coin discussions, for example, the very recent one about the
slabbed Ugly Head on eBay. Why is that?

What to make of this? I think it's a telling commentary about human
nature, about how, too often, things don't go optimally when people
are entirely left to their own devices. Lord of the Flies. Usenet has
and always has had FAQs and other attempts at guidance. But people
ignore them. Other Internet communications technologies do a better
job of reigning in.


For the record, that should be "reining in." Oops, wrong group. Let's see,
that would be alt.english.usage. My bad. But try doing that over there and
see how long you survive. Those guys will tear you one over a misplaced
quotation mark or improper use of the pluperfect subjunctive. Welcome to
Usenet.

This short analysis, naturally, will just lead to more of what you
previously predicted, flaming and nitpicking, with one utterly
predictable response being that I'm whining and another utterly
predictable one being, don't let the door hit your derriere on the way
out.You know, creative stuff. g Somebody thinking they're being
terribly clever will no doubt just ape these very words. If one person
leaves a substantive response, dealing with the subject matter that I
just addressed, I believe I just might fall off my chair. If one
person discusses anything related to numismatics as a result of my
opening post in this thread, I believe I just may have a coronary. Or
not.


You say you want to talk coins, so let's talk coins, and I'll take a cue
from your essay. I hope you are able to take advantage of the best health
system in the world, though, because here comes Heart Attack City.

Let's talk "Colonial" coppers for a moment, specifically those that were
unauthorized by whatever authorizing party was authorized to authorize them.
To keep this simple, let's limit the discussion to Maris 54-k, the "Serpent
Head" New Jersey copper, the obverse having been inspired by the legitimate
Maris number 46 die, and struck over lighterweight, already-manufactured
coins, but still circulated at the then-current and higher rate of exchange
for Jersey coppers. Is it a counterfeit? You betcha! Is it collectible?
You betcha! It's a Redbook variety, for crying out loud, and there is no
mention there of its dubious origin. I daresay that people who collect
these things couldn't care less that their treasure represents the Devil's
handiwork.

Oh heck, while I'm at it, why not broach the subject of Machin's Mills,
which was responsible for all sorts of bogo products in the 1780s, whether
counterfeit British ha'pennies, Vermont mules, or Connecticut monstrosities
disguised as legitimate coins? Thanks in part to Thomas Machin's
ministrations, a copper panic was precipitated, which cast a pall over
almost all the circulating coppers at the end of the 1780s and early 1790s.

How many subsequent on-topic rejoinder posts shall I now expect? Ten?
Five? Two? Oh, all right, just one will be fine. Lay on, RCC.

James



  #9  
Old February 20th 10, 08:13 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Clyde Crashcup
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Collecting experience

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
You say you want to talk coins, so let's talk coins, and I'll take a cue from
your essay. I hope you are able to take advantage of the best health system
in the world, though, because here comes Heart Attack City.


When Reid says he wants to talk about coins, what he really wants to do is give
another long-winded, self-serving, bombastic opinion of RCC and the world in
general, the upshot of it generally being that he, and only he, has any
numismatic knowledge and integrity and no one else should be allowed to post
unless it is in complete agreement with him and his high estimation of himself.
Whew!
Poor widdle Reid, so much knowledge to share and nobody wants to listen to
you...


  #10  
Old February 20th 10, 08:45 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
oly
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,111
Default Collecting experience

On Feb 20, 1:13*pm, "Clyde Crashcup" wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message

...

You say you want to talk coins, so let's talk coins, and I'll take a cue from
your essay. *I hope you are able to take advantage of the best health system
in the world, though, because here comes Heart Attack City.


When Reid says he wants to talk about coins, what he really wants to do is give
another long-winded, self-serving, bombastic opinion of RCC and the world in
general, the upshot of it generally being that he, and only he, has any
numismatic knowledge and integrity and no one else should be allowed to post
unless it is in complete agreement with him and his high estimation of himself.
Whew!
Poor widdle Reid, so much knowledge to share and nobody wants to listen to
you...


RF!!!!!! My man!!!!!! The man!!!!!! Wondered about your whereabouts
from time to time.

oly
 




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