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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 19th 07, 02:32 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
...

"Terry" wrote in message
...

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:54:36 -0500, "Mr. Jaggers"
lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote:

I have no beef, but can only summarize what is observable. First, "In
God
We Trust" is a false statement, as it does not apply to all 300 million
U.S.
citizens. Second, many do not wish the government to speak for them or
represent them with regard to personal, private faith. Finally, there
are
multiple interpretations and definitions of Deity, even among those who
do
believe in one, that one worldview is no more important than another,
true
even if a particular one might be held by a majority. Under these
circumstances, the default value must therefore be zero. You are
correct in
saying that IGWT does not establish a state religion, but for the
reasons I
have enumerated, it is my opinion that it should not appear on our
currency.

Bingo. And well said. I'm also weary of those who don't get it. But I
understand it. Religion has nothing to do with reason or intelligence.
It has to with faith, with believing despite evidence or lack of it.
In general, the more fundamental the faith, the less important reason
becomes. "In God We Trust" on coins in no different from prayer in
schools, at attempt to foist the religiosity of one group on the
whole. The Supreme Court over the years has interpreted the First
Amendment to mean more than the literal words, instead to mean that
national affairs and religious affairs should be separate. The
arguments for "In God We Trust" are just blatant rationalizations of
one of the most important founding doctrines of this country, this
separation of church and state, of religious affairs from national
affairs. "In God We Trust" on coins is hypocrisy.

--

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That motto started in 1864 when things had not been going well for the
US. Now it can be looked at as a historical oddity without getting all
worked up over it. The people of Oklahoma were not allowed to have their
statue of a pioneer woman on their quarter because she carried a bible,
and IGWT has been put in an inconspicous place on the dollar coins (and
the presidents's ladie's coins also ?). So you are making some progress.
I wonder how the paper money guys are getting along with the great seal
of the United States on the dollar bill ?

TerryS


I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly
worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT
issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need
to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or
extra credit.


Actually, as I get older, it matters less and less to me, as the motto is
increasingly difficult to see!

James
'the eyes go first, then the memory, then the eyes...'


Ads
  #12  
Old May 19th 07, 02:50 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:

I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly
worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT
issue--
either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be
addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra
credit.


Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard
coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change,
then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little
consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's,
coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own
citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and
imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you
wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as
unimportant.

"In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and
inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the
doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional
commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd
expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western
democracy.


I understand the theory behind the arguments on both sides of the issue.
All I'm saying is that I don't feel "violated" by seeing IGWT on our coins,
our currency, or anywhere else. It's simply a traditional slogan and I
don't attach any significance to it. Our circulating coins are designed
and minted for use by US citizens. 140 years of IGWT and past presidents on
our coins apparently hasn't soured the world on us yet, and I doubt many
foreign citizens consider what is stamped on our minor coins or printed on
our bills as representing "who we are". As a collector of US coins, I
don't particularly care what's on the coins. I can understand the
rationale for removing IGWT from our coins. But it's just not something I
feel strongly about one way or another.

Bruce





  #13  
Old May 19th 07, 03:16 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dale Hallmark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 329
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:

I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly
worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT
issue--
either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be
addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra
credit.


Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard
coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change,
then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little
consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's,
coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own
citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and
imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you
wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as
unimportant.

"In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and
inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the
doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional
commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd
expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western
democracy.



First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with some
Democratic tendencies. The way we tend to view that, the concept of
majority rule, in theory is supposed to apply at least where we elect the
people that we think but aren't quite sure, we want to represent us (make
our decisions for us).

In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to
presuppose it does.
Therefore the only real group it should upset are atheist. I stress
SHOULD.

There are two moronic groups in this argument, and one major group that is
not included; those that want IGWT on the coinage, with an agenda that
presupposes it is an effort to support the Christian ideal, and Christianity
is the majority of the nation and the other opposing but minority group that
are or seem to be anti Christian in all things and the third that don't
care.

The facts of the matter is that there is no GOOD reason for it to be there
but then again there is no GOOD reason for it to not be there either;
however in this case majority SHOULD rule.

Since IGWT denotes no particular god then the argument that it is anti
constitutional is patently lubricous.

Leave it on or take it off, I don't care but don't insult my intelligence in
arguing that either is the right or legal thing to do. How stupid can you
be?

Dale
I am part of the 3rd group, the one that really doesn't care.










  #14  
Old May 19th 07, 04:39 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
PC[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 544
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...


http://www.history.com/tdih.do?actio...tegory&id=5869


I agree with the late, great Theodore Roosevelt, who considered this
blasphemous.


Same here. This denigrates God and cheapens him in my opinion.


  #15  
Old May 19th 07, 04:42 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
PC[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 544
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Anka" wrote in message
ups.com...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ."

No state religion was established. So what's your beef?


My beef is with the cuckoos who somehow think if this was removed that it
will herald the end of mankind as we know it. Or some such nonsense.

Anka ----- weary of those who don't *get* it


Indeed.



  #16  
Old May 19th 07, 04:45 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
PC[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 544
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Bruce Remick" wrote in message
...


I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly
worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT
issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need
to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or
extra credit.


Truth be told - on our coins - off our coins - I don't give a rat's a**.
What gets my blood boiling is morons who insist it be on our coins.


  #17  
Old May 19th 07, 04:48 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Reid Goldsborough
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 944
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"

On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:16:37 -0500, "Dale Hallmark" dalehall at
cableone.net wrote:

First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with some
Democratic tendencies.


Wrong. Federalism is a type of democracy. Democracy comes in various
flavors and has since its inception 25 centuries ago. One of the chief
foreign affairs goals of the United States, the most loudly proclaimed
goal, is to spread democracy, along with trying to further our
national interests. We're not spending billions in the world to spread
federalism.

In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to
presuppose it does.


Wrong also. The motto "In God We Trust" denotes personal monotheism,
the belief in a god that involves itself in the affairs of human
beings. Many people believe in god but are deists who don't believe in
a personal god that involves itself this way, let alone a god who can
be trusted, believing instead in a god who is simply the force behind
creation.

And of course there are those who hold other beliefs, from polytheism
to agnosticism to atheism and so on. This is not a country about which
"In God We Trust" is believed by anything close to everybody, and many
Americans would argue that IGWT is not a sentiment that should be
believed, feeling instead that "In Reason We Trust" or "In Goodness We
Trust" and so on would be more advisable, lead to a greater good, all
the rest.

These are not trivial matters. To many, nothing is as important as
religion and how it's expressed. Likewise, what's put on a nation's
coins is not a trivial matter, particularly to a coin collector! It's
incomprehensible to me that a coin person such as yourself could say
that he doesn't care about the words put on his own country's coins.

You *say* you don't care, but not credibly. Your actions belie your
words. If you really didn't care about this issue, you wouldn't post
about it, let alone calling others names.

You characterize those who do care as moronic, but you appear have
little understanding of the underlying issues involving government and
less understanding of those involving religion. There's no other way
to describe this post of yours than the word you yourself used about
others: moronic. Next time instead of saying you don't care about this
issue, say you don't know. You'll come across better, more genuine.

--

Email: (delete "remove this")

Consumer:
http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos
  #18  
Old May 19th 07, 04:48 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
PC[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 544
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Dale Hallmark" dalehall at cableone.net wrote in message
...


Since IGWT denotes no particular god


Let's change it to "In Allah We Trust" or "In Yahweh We Trust" and really
watch the sparks fly. :-)


  #19  
Old May 19th 07, 11:27 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Mr. Jaggers
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,523
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"


"Dale Hallmark" dalehall at cableone.net wrote in message
...

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:

I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly
worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT
issue--
either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be
addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra
credit.


Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard
coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change,
then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little
consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's,
coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own
citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and
imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you
wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as
unimportant.

"In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and
inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the
doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional
commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd
expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western
democracy.



First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with
some Democratic tendencies. The way we tend to view that, the concept of
majority rule, in theory is supposed to apply at least where we elect the
people that we think but aren't quite sure, we want to represent us (make
our decisions for us).

In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to
presuppose it does.
Therefore the only real group it should upset are atheist. I stress
SHOULD.

There are two moronic groups in this argument, and one major group that is
not included; those that want IGWT on the coinage, with an agenda that
presupposes it is an effort to support the Christian ideal, and
Christianity is the majority of the nation and the other opposing but
minority group that are or seem to be anti Christian in all things and the
third that don't care.


According to what you have just written, I'm a moron because I care, and
maybe even an atheist, is that about it?

James


  #20  
Old May 19th 07, 12:42 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Sibirskmoneta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 638
Default Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"

I think it should be changed, to "In Gold We Trust" !


 




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