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Anyone with get scammed by Ebay book sellers?



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 13th 04, 03:13 PM
Haunted River
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"John Yamamoto-Wilson" wrote in message

More disturbing is HR's claim that

Ebay let him off the hook. I forwarded them original emails
in which this man admitted shilling bids and in which he
admitted both to a criminal record and making physical
threats. They turned a blind eye to his antics because they
were making money from him.


I think this stems from the "three strikes and out" policy that they seem to
employ, so from the complainant's point of view it seems that nothing has
been done, when in fact eBay have notched up one complaint, but don't
actually do anything until more complaints come in. That doesn't seem a very
good way of dealing with things, though, because it doesn't take into
account the severity of the infraction. The case of a seller who admits
shill bidding and threatens violence is clearly more serious than that of
someone offering to buy something outside the eBay site but, from what I
understand, eBay deals with both in exactly the same way.


I forgot to say that these are very good and reasonable points to
make.

When one assesses risk professionally, the forumula is always
LIKELIHOOD multiplied by SEVERITY OF OUTCOME. If the EBAY disciplinary
policy were weighted then I don't doubt that the more serious single
incidents would score more highly than they do now.

The man was suspended for a week or maybe a month, I cannot recall
exactly. But that wasn't the issue for me: it was the fact that EBAY
allowed him to keep the shilled feedback which he had admitted was
false and posted by his friend.



Nothing funnier than seeing an admitted liar, cheat, and thief
complaining about someone else lathering him in his own slime.


Sounds like one of those syllogisms about Cretans. I mean, suppose he was
lying when he admitted being a liar? Anyway, I do hope you're not going to
start wishing him "sausage" in prison and all those other things that so
poisoned the season's good cheer when you laid into him last Christmas...



The thing that bugs Pelan and his cronies is this: that whilst I've
been able to successively prove that they have lied and cheated their
way across discussion sites, using a recently outed and infiltrated
base at Yahoo ("Bad Mr Toad"), they have been singularly unable to pin
a single thing on me. The best allegation they've got is that for one
week I featured Ramsey Campbell's cronyist review of one of my
booklets on my website, which apparently infringed his copyright. On
the basis of that one slender issue, Pelan is now running around the
playground chanting "Kill The Pig! Kill The Pig!"

Luckily the school bell (aka the computer off-switch) quickly puts an
end to his obsessive nonsense. Or people standing up to him.

But I agree that his profanity often gets the better of him.

CB
Ads
  #22  
Old April 13th 04, 03:36 PM
John Pelan
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On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:53:34 GMT, "Kris Baker"
wrote:


"John Pelan" wrote in message
.. .

Nothing funnier than seeing an admitted liar, cheat, and thief
complaining about someone else lathering him in his own slime.

The first sentence of your little rant is enough to get you
permanently NARUed from eBay.

Good day,


John Pelan



The whole thing sounded like performance art, didn't it?

Kris


I think Barfer is sort of like the mad busker that's long since given
up trying to entertain the crowds and instead opts to sit on the curb
and hurl invective at the passing throng.

Cheers,

John


  #24  
Old April 13th 04, 07:52 PM
MindElec
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On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 18:07:36 +0900, "John Yamamoto-Wilson"
declared:

In such cases, one or two questions just to sort out the basics - Who is the
publisher? Are all the pages present and attached to the book? - or to clear
up issue points - What is the price on the dust jacket? Does it have an
advertisement for such-and-such at the back of the book? - and, hey presto,
a sleeper has been awoken.


exactly! i just got a first of koontz's whispers for $5 that way.

the trick is if they don't say, you have to ask. do not assume it is
what you want.


Robert

--

The sound of gunfire, off in the distance, I'm getting used to it now
Lived in a brownstone, lived in the ghetto, I've lived all over this town
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around
  #25  
Old April 13th 04, 07:56 PM
MindElec
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On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:53:51 GMT, Cathy Krusberg
declared:

palmer.william wrote:

Mr. or Ms. Internet Bookseller, you will either
describe your listings in grammatical English
using the standard terms of the trade or you
will not get my business.

(And as to the book buyers, well, if you are dumb
enough to buy on line from so-called booksellers who
don't know their basic terminology--and exhibit
an atrocious lack of writing skills too--Ebay is not
going to be able to save you from yourself.)


Although I basically agree with this, I'd like to add
one caveat: That the seller can suffer when s/he
uses standard terms correctly and the buyer does not.
I've seen negative feedback resulting from a book's
condition being described as "good" (in the trade standard
sense) but not being up to the buyer's idea of "good" (in
a more colloquial sense). Sometimes you can't win.


a book dealer describing a book as "good" really Really should have
more of a description than that. "good" along with a laundry list of
flaws should make the true condition apparent.



Robert

--

The sound of gunfire, off in the distance, I'm getting used to it now
Lived in a brownstone, lived in the ghetto, I've lived all over this town
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around
  #26  
Old April 13th 04, 11:52 PM
Charles Seyferlich
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:56:44 -0500, MindElec wrote:

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:53:51 GMT, Cathy Krusberg
declared:

palmer.william wrote:

Mr. or Ms. Internet Bookseller, you will either
describe your listings in grammatical English
using the standard terms of the trade or you
will not get my business.

(And as to the book buyers, well, if you are dumb
enough to buy on line from so-called booksellers who
don't know their basic terminology--and exhibit
an atrocious lack of writing skills too--Ebay is not
going to be able to save you from yourself.)


Although I basically agree with this, I'd like to add
one caveat: That the seller can suffer when s/he
uses standard terms correctly and the buyer does not.
I've seen negative feedback resulting from a book's
condition being described as "good" (in the trade standard
sense) but not being up to the buyer's idea of "good" (in
a more colloquial sense). Sometimes you can't win.


a book dealer describing a book as "good" really Really should have
more of a description than that. "good" along with a laundry list of
flaws should make the true condition apparent.



Robert


I sell books on eBay from time to time and I guess am guilty of
breaking some rules when doing description. However, I am not a
dealer, just selling off books I own.

I usually list books as in read but good condition. If any tears,
store labels, marks, etc exist they are spelled out. Most of what I
list are paperbacks or book club editions - and are so described.

If anyone has felt scammed by me they have not said so.

Reason for selling? I had 3,000+ books and instead of reading a book
every day or two I read one every week or two. I guess I am at age
where I can't concentrate well enough to get into reading.

Note; This isn't a "plug" for eBay sales - I don't have any books
listed.


  #27  
Old April 14th 04, 01:24 AM
Daveblues
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I think Barfer is sort of like the mad busker that's long since given
up trying to entertain the crowds and instead opts to sit on the curb
and hurl invective at the passing throng.


More like a monkey in a cage who hurls his feces at those outside his confines.
  #28  
Old April 14th 04, 01:50 AM
MindElec
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:52:01 GMT, Charles Seyferlich
declared:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:56:44 -0500, MindElec wrote:

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 13:53:51 GMT, Cathy Krusberg
declared:

palmer.william wrote:

Mr. or Ms. Internet Bookseller, you will either
describe your listings in grammatical English
using the standard terms of the trade or you
will not get my business.

(And as to the book buyers, well, if you are dumb
enough to buy on line from so-called booksellers who
don't know their basic terminology--and exhibit
an atrocious lack of writing skills too--Ebay is not
going to be able to save you from yourself.)

Although I basically agree with this, I'd like to add
one caveat: That the seller can suffer when s/he
uses standard terms correctly and the buyer does not.
I've seen negative feedback resulting from a book's
condition being described as "good" (in the trade standard
sense) but not being up to the buyer's idea of "good" (in
a more colloquial sense). Sometimes you can't win.


a book dealer describing a book as "good" really Really should have
more of a description than that. "good" along with a laundry list of
flaws should make the true condition apparent.



Robert


I sell books on eBay from time to time and I guess am guilty of
breaking some rules when doing description. However, I am not a
dealer, just selling off books I own.

I usually list books as in read but good condition. If any tears,
store labels, marks, etc exist they are spelled out. Most of what I
list are paperbacks or book club editions - and are so described.


sure, i sell books too and make a point of describing condition
accurately and stating edition accurately in both terms that the
layman and collector will understand. i wasn't pointing a nasty
finger at ebay sellers.

If anyone has felt scammed by me they have not said so.


which then is their own fault. a problem can't be fixed if the seller
doesn't know about it.




Robert

--

The sound of gunfire, off in the distance, I'm getting used to it now
Lived in a brownstone, lived in the ghetto, I've lived all over this town
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco, this ain't no fooling around
  #29  
Old April 14th 04, 08:32 AM
Brian
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John Pelan wrote:

Quite right, second sentence... It is disturbing that eBay allows for
a three strikes policy when some very serious infractions occur. Of
course they also allow idjits like Barker to ruin sellers feedback by
complaining when he couldn't figure out how to wind a clock...


Not that I feel ebay does a good job of policing, but how is ebay
supposed to know who is lying. Submitted e-mails can be faked (and
not easily verifiable unless they were sent through ebay. If you have
corresponded with the seller, then you have valid headers to put on
top of the faked e-mail - ISPs do not keep permanent backups of all
e-mail - most delete it shortly after you read it. Only corporate
and government e-mail routinely gets archived. Even if the e-mail
is archived, most ISPs/companies/governments have a policy of not
disclosing anything without a court order. [I worked at an ISP and
we wouldn't disclose anything without a court order; that would
be a violation of our privacy policy - We would investigate
a complaint if it involved a violation of our rules.])

We've seen accounts in this group of dis-honest sellers threatening
to leave bad feedback to the victims. Or delaying with excuses
so the time limit for feedback expires. Or using shill accounts
to place fake bids to drive away real buyers for revenge.
....And lots more.

The first time a compliant shows up with quoted e-mails as
evidence, there is no way to know if it is real, retaliation,
harassment or even tempers flaring due to a misunderstanding.
Since the dishonest sellers have multiple accounts
(or hijacked accounts), a false complaint can come from a clean,
high feedback account with no prior interaction with the victim.



When you are the wronged party or you have experience with
one or both parties, then it is obvious to you which party
is lying. However, as an outsider it would take a lot of
investigation by experts in many fields (books, e-mail tracing,
pattern matching to find shills, forgery analysts, etc.) to
evaluate each case. Plus, e-bay does not have the object in
dispute and even if it was submitted, the other party will
claim that it was switched or damaged by the recipient.



[A mailing return receipt only shows that _A_ package was
delivered - it does not show what was in the package.

Someone who buys a lot from one seller is suspicious,
but not always a shill.

Someone who is overly defensive and belligerent is not
always dishonest.]



Better diligence in prevention and investigation would
help, but the scammers will always be there with constantly
evolving methods to avoid/delay being shut down and then
popping up again with new identities.



I've had a couple of bad ebay transactions, but overall I've
been happy with it. I'm careful and research the seller and
item before bidding on anything expensive.
Many times I bid thinking that the item was poorly described,
so I assumed the worst and bid appropriately - sometimes I got
what I expected and sometimes I was pleasantly surprised.
One bad transaction was a clueless seller who made a mistake
and then was convinced that I was trying to scam them. The
other was a four dollar item lost in the mail (complicated
by the seller going on a long vacation right after sending it.)

Brian




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  #30  
Old April 14th 04, 11:35 AM
John Yamamoto-Wilson
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John Pelan wrote:

I think Barfer is sort of like the mad busker that's long since given
up trying to entertain the crowds and instead opts to sit on the curb
and hurl invective at the passing throng.


Daveblues commented:

More like a monkey in a cage who hurls his feces at those outside
his confines.


Forgive me, but I just don't get it. I've been posting to this group for a
number of years (though probably less than Daveblues and certainly less than
John), but I still don't get it.

I read a reasonably interesting and coherent account of Haunted River's
experience with an eBay seller, and sat back just *knowing* that the flaming
would start, just as it did when he tried to raise the topic of people using
his scans of dust jackets to make and sell facsimiles
(http://tinyurl.com/3ajct), and just as it has whenever he has tried to post
here.

I would agree that some of his postings have been injudicious, but would it
be too much to ask for the knee-jerk reactions to stop and for people just
to take this guy's postings on their individual merits? If the same posting
had been made by someone else no one would have dreamed of characterising
the poster as a mad busker or a monkey hurling faeces.

--
John
http://rarebooksinjapan.com

 




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