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#11
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Bruce Remick" wrote in message ... "Terry" wrote in message ... "Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 May 2007 14:54:36 -0500, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote: I have no beef, but can only summarize what is observable. First, "In God We Trust" is a false statement, as it does not apply to all 300 million U.S. citizens. Second, many do not wish the government to speak for them or represent them with regard to personal, private faith. Finally, there are multiple interpretations and definitions of Deity, even among those who do believe in one, that one worldview is no more important than another, true even if a particular one might be held by a majority. Under these circumstances, the default value must therefore be zero. You are correct in saying that IGWT does not establish a state religion, but for the reasons I have enumerated, it is my opinion that it should not appear on our currency. Bingo. And well said. I'm also weary of those who don't get it. But I understand it. Religion has nothing to do with reason or intelligence. It has to with faith, with believing despite evidence or lack of it. In general, the more fundamental the faith, the less important reason becomes. "In God We Trust" on coins in no different from prayer in schools, at attempt to foist the religiosity of one group on the whole. The Supreme Court over the years has interpreted the First Amendment to mean more than the literal words, instead to mean that national affairs and religious affairs should be separate. The arguments for "In God We Trust" are just blatant rationalizations of one of the most important founding doctrines of this country, this separation of church and state, of religious affairs from national affairs. "In God We Trust" on coins is hypocrisy. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos That motto started in 1864 when things had not been going well for the US. Now it can be looked at as a historical oddity without getting all worked up over it. The people of Oklahoma were not allowed to have their statue of a pioneer woman on their quarter because she carried a bible, and IGWT has been put in an inconspicous place on the dollar coins (and the presidents's ladie's coins also ?). So you are making some progress. I wonder how the paper money guys are getting along with the great seal of the United States on the dollar bill ? TerryS I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra credit. Actually, as I get older, it matters less and less to me, as the motto is increasingly difficult to see! James 'the eyes go first, then the memory, then the eyes...' |
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick" wrote: I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra credit. Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change, then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's, coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as unimportant. "In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western democracy. I understand the theory behind the arguments on both sides of the issue. All I'm saying is that I don't feel "violated" by seeing IGWT on our coins, our currency, or anywhere else. It's simply a traditional slogan and I don't attach any significance to it. Our circulating coins are designed and minted for use by US citizens. 140 years of IGWT and past presidents on our coins apparently hasn't soured the world on us yet, and I doubt many foreign citizens consider what is stamped on our minor coins or printed on our bills as representing "who we are". As a collector of US coins, I don't particularly care what's on the coins. I can understand the rationale for removing IGWT from our coins. But it's just not something I feel strongly about one way or another. Bruce |
#13
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick" wrote: I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra credit. Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change, then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's, coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as unimportant. "In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western democracy. First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with some Democratic tendencies. The way we tend to view that, the concept of majority rule, in theory is supposed to apply at least where we elect the people that we think but aren't quite sure, we want to represent us (make our decisions for us). In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to presuppose it does. Therefore the only real group it should upset are atheist. I stress SHOULD. There are two moronic groups in this argument, and one major group that is not included; those that want IGWT on the coinage, with an agenda that presupposes it is an effort to support the Christian ideal, and Christianity is the majority of the nation and the other opposing but minority group that are or seem to be anti Christian in all things and the third that don't care. The facts of the matter is that there is no GOOD reason for it to be there but then again there is no GOOD reason for it to not be there either; however in this case majority SHOULD rule. Since IGWT denotes no particular god then the argument that it is anti constitutional is patently lubricous. Leave it on or take it off, I don't care but don't insult my intelligence in arguing that either is the right or legal thing to do. How stupid can you be? Dale I am part of the 3rd group, the one that really doesn't care. |
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... http://www.history.com/tdih.do?actio...tegory&id=5869 I agree with the late, great Theodore Roosevelt, who considered this blasphemous. Same here. This denigrates God and cheapens him in my opinion. |
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Anka" wrote in message ups.com... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." No state religion was established. So what's your beef? My beef is with the cuckoos who somehow think if this was removed that it will herald the end of mankind as we know it. Or some such nonsense. Anka ----- weary of those who don't *get* it Indeed. |
#16
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Bruce Remick" wrote in message ... I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra credit. Truth be told - on our coins - off our coins - I don't give a rat's a**. What gets my blood boiling is morons who insist it be on our coins. |
#17
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:16:37 -0500, "Dale Hallmark" dalehall at
cableone.net wrote: First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with some Democratic tendencies. Wrong. Federalism is a type of democracy. Democracy comes in various flavors and has since its inception 25 centuries ago. One of the chief foreign affairs goals of the United States, the most loudly proclaimed goal, is to spread democracy, along with trying to further our national interests. We're not spending billions in the world to spread federalism. In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to presuppose it does. Wrong also. The motto "In God We Trust" denotes personal monotheism, the belief in a god that involves itself in the affairs of human beings. Many people believe in god but are deists who don't believe in a personal god that involves itself this way, let alone a god who can be trusted, believing instead in a god who is simply the force behind creation. And of course there are those who hold other beliefs, from polytheism to agnosticism to atheism and so on. This is not a country about which "In God We Trust" is believed by anything close to everybody, and many Americans would argue that IGWT is not a sentiment that should be believed, feeling instead that "In Reason We Trust" or "In Goodness We Trust" and so on would be more advisable, lead to a greater good, all the rest. These are not trivial matters. To many, nothing is as important as religion and how it's expressed. Likewise, what's put on a nation's coins is not a trivial matter, particularly to a coin collector! It's incomprehensible to me that a coin person such as yourself could say that he doesn't care about the words put on his own country's coins. You *say* you don't care, but not credibly. Your actions belie your words. If you really didn't care about this issue, you wouldn't post about it, let alone calling others names. You characterize those who do care as moronic, but you appear have little understanding of the underlying issues involving government and less understanding of those involving religion. There's no other way to describe this post of yours than the word you yourself used about others: moronic. Next time instead of saying you don't care about this issue, say you don't know. You'll come across better, more genuine. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#18
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Dale Hallmark" dalehall at cableone.net wrote in message ... Since IGWT denotes no particular god Let's change it to "In Allah We Trust" or "In Yahweh We Trust" and really watch the sparks fly. :-) |
#19
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
"Dale Hallmark" dalehall at cableone.net wrote in message ... "Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Fri, 18 May 2007 21:05:19 -0400, "Bruce Remick" wrote: I agree. There are things that can truly hurt people which are certainly worth getting huffy over. To me, personal indignance over this IGWT issue-- either side-- ranks way way down on the list of things that need to be addressed, unless one simply enjoys pontificating for exercise or extra credit. Much of it has to do with how important an institution you regard coinage. If it's just bits of metal used to make and spend change, then sure, what verbiage your country puts on it is of little consequence. But if you understand that a country's, any country's, coinage is a statement it's sending out about itself, to its own citizens as well as the rest of the world, then the verbiage and imagery mean a lot. If you're a coin collector, I can't see how you wouldn't be in the latter group, how you would regard it as unimportant. "In God We Trust" is on coinage because of political pandering and inertia. It's a violation of the First Amendment, a violation of the doctrine of the separation of church and state, an unconstitutional commingling of national and religious affairs. It's a motto you'd expect to see on the coinage of an Islamic theocracy, not a Western democracy. First of all the US is NOT a Democracy. We are a Federal Republic with some Democratic tendencies. The way we tend to view that, the concept of majority rule, in theory is supposed to apply at least where we elect the people that we think but aren't quite sure, we want to represent us (make our decisions for us). In God we Trust denotes no particular God, you have to have an agenda to presuppose it does. Therefore the only real group it should upset are atheist. I stress SHOULD. There are two moronic groups in this argument, and one major group that is not included; those that want IGWT on the coinage, with an agenda that presupposes it is an effort to support the Christian ideal, and Christianity is the majority of the nation and the other opposing but minority group that are or seem to be anti Christian in all things and the third that don't care. According to what you have just written, I'm a moron because I care, and maybe even an atheist, is that about it? James |
#20
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Congress mandates use of "In God We Trust"
I think it should be changed, to "In Gold We Trust" !
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