Customer thinks I'm a liar, cheat & thief

As this works it's way to court or whatever end that comes let us
know. It will be very interesting to see what happens.

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message
k.net...

Wes, I don't claim any authority whatsoever in this newsgroup, but I think I
speak on behalf of all the decent folks here on r.c.c. who know you as an
ethical human being and honest coin dealer. You have a fan club among us,
and we're all on the sidelines rooting and cheering for our guy! But for
the grace of God, this sort of thing could happen to any one of us. Things
are already ugly, but even if they get uglier, I am confident that you will
prevail in the end. Keep up the good work!

Jag

1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY came to
us, we did not go to them.

2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items may be
listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12 ea."

3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature of the
metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases are considered
final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.

And who decides what is fair? For instance, on the circulated common
Morgan's, is $11 fair? How about $10, or $9, or $7, or $4? The bottom line
is the seller must determine what is fair to him. And the buyer (me) must
determine what is fair to the buyer. If I pay to little, they will go
somewhere else and I will soon be out of inventory, and shortly thereafter,
out of business. If the buyer (me) pays to much, I will soon have a store
full of coins, and no buyers. And shortly thereafter, be out of business.

If I bought 20 of thier Peace dollars at $11, and 15 went into the $15 tray,
and I am able to price 5 more at $18-$23 each, am I a bad guy?

Hi Wes:

Sounds like you have a valid bill of sale for this transaction. The
bottom
of your form means just that - once the sale is concluded, it is final.

The only time they would have a "case" is if you knowingly, grossly
underpaid
for something in the lot. If it is properly described, and it sounds
like
it is, you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

Unfortunately, people are too quick to sue, or threaten to sue - don't
suppose
you can do anything about that. Hopefully, losers pay court
costs/lawyer fees in your
state...

All IMHO, of course.

Kind Regards,
John

Wes Chormicle wrote:
1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY came to
us, we did not go to them.

2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items may be
listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12 ea."

3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature of the
metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases are considered
final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.

And who decides what is fair? For instance, on the circulated common
Morgan's, is $11 fair? How about $10, or $9, or $7, or $4? The bottom line
is the seller must determine what is fair to him. And the buyer (me) must
determine what is fair to the buyer. If I pay to little, they will go
somewhere else and I will soon be out of inventory, and shortly thereafter,
out of business. If the buyer (me) pays to much, I will soon have a store
full of coins, and no buyers. And shortly thereafter, be out of business.

If I bought 20 of thier Peace dollars at $11, and 15 went into the $15 tray,
and I am able to price 5 more at $18-$23 each, am I a bad guy?

Wes,

Sellers remorse -- very very naive sellers remorse.

I think that an independent third party, such as your local municipal
judge, or arbiter, or perhaps another coin dealer, would be just the
right thing for you and these people. Consider how it would go.

There could simply be a series of calmly stated questions about how the
plaintiffs can back up any shred their claims. Which coins were
theirs? Do they have their own inventory of the collection, or even
just of the individual coins they claim you undervalued? Do they have
any photos or certification records?

How did they determine their tardy assessment that the coins were so
valuable? Let them parade the PF65 prices from the Red Book. Then show
all the columns in the Red Book pages to the court or arbiter, and ask
plaintiffs how they evaluated the coindition of each allegedly valuable
coin. Who made the grading determinations for them? What was their
experience?

Circulated Peace and Morgan dollars are very common. Comingling common
siver is a common dealer practice. What is their evidence that you
swapped any of their coins? Let's be specific now. Which coins?
Exchanged for what? Did anyone see you setting aside their gems and
substituting junk? Where are those gems now?

On second thought, simply asking their attorney to provide an itemized
list of the disputed coins with detailed descriptions, alleged
condition, method of determination, alleged value, evidence of of
ownership, and perhaps item substituted, should be enough to make
everyone see reality rather quickly.

Head off as much trouble as you can by locating the few coins that you
can identify, and offering them back to the customers for exactly what
you paid for them, no more.

I doubt you have much to worry about. Treat these folks as pathetic
rather than criminals, and I suspect you will do okay. But welcome a
bit of third party oversight, if necessary. HTH.

--Dave

Wes Chormicle wrote:

Last week I had 2 or 3 different discussions with a man about the collection
his 80 year old mother had. This was a collection that had belonged to his
father with a few pieces from grandparents, etc. He stated that the
decision to sell would be his mother's and that she was too frail to bring
it into the shop and could we come to them and do the appraisal. He
estimated the collection in the 50K range.

This past Wednesday at noon, Troy (my partner) and I go out to see them. It
turns out it really wasn't a collection, but more of an accumulation. The
only nice coin was a 1798 Lg Cent in Fine. Everything else was basically
junk silver and 6 Kugerrands. The son thought "1OZ" on the Kugs meant 10
ounces. In this accumulation were 56 (or so) common date Morgan & Peace
dollars including about 20 1922 Peace dollars in AU/BU. These dollars are
coins that we typically buy for $11-$12 and put in our "$15 Each" tray.
These were not gem bu coins, just low grade uncs (talking the Peace dollars
here, the Morgan's were all G-VF).

After all is said and done, it comes to about $13,000. The mother and son
mull it over for a few minutes and agree to the price. We get back to the
shop and dump the junk silver into the buckets where we dump all the silver
that come in the door. Pretty much everything gets processed into our
inventory. And that pretty much ends the day on Wednesday.

Thursday morning the phone rings in the shop within a minute or two of my
arrival (I'm always the 1st one there). It's the woman who sold the coins,
says she didn't sleep all night and says she shouldn't have sold them and
wants them back. I told her most of it was already mixed into all the other
junk silver, but to let me see what I could do and I would call her back by
10:30 (she called at 9:00am).

At 10:35 Charlotte tried to call her back (3 time), but the ladies phone was
"out of order". At 12:00, I get a phone call from the lady's attorney. He
says she wants her money back, that we didn't return her call, and that we
"grossly under paid" what the coins were worth. I was shocked and offended
(and told him so). I asked him to name a single coin that we "grossly under
paid" her on. He tells me that according to the "guide" the 1921's were
worth "hundreds" of dollars and the 1922 dollars were worth "upwards of
$40,000"! And we "stole" them for $11-$12 each.

I replied in shock, "What on earth "guide" are you looking at?" He's looking
at the Redbook, far right column on the 1922 High Relief PF 65 Peace dollar.
And he looking at 1921 Peace dollar rather than the 1921 Morgan dollar. I
really unloaded on this guy (not my nature) for about 10 minutes. I gave
him some specifics about the 1922 Peace High Relief dollar (like a PCGS pop.
of about 5), the difference between a 1921 Morgan and Peace dollar. I
invited him to call ANY dealer in the country and ask what they pay for
common date Peace & Morgan dollars. I really blasted this idiot. Told him
if he really had the best interest of his client at stake he should have
them come in and see us, and we'd see what we could do.

A couple of hours later the lady and her son come in. The lady is visible
upset and shaking. I told her I would give her her $500+/- face of silver
and her 56 Dollars back if she felt so strong about it. I also told her
that they would not be the exact coins because they all got dumped into
buckets with other coins. That was not acceptable to them. They are
convinced that they had something like 20, 1922 High Relief 1922 Peace
dollars, and that we are stealing them. No amount of explaining could
convince them how unlikely it was that they had ONE, much less 20 of the
coins.

They stormed out mad. I fully expect to be sued on this.

1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY came
to
us, we did not go to them.


2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items may
be
listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12 ea."


3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature of
the
metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases are
considered
final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.



I think you are in the clear, if they didn't like the prices you
offered they should have just
turned it down and walked out. Since the form is signed by both
parties I don't see
how they have a leg to stand on.

Assuming this is a reply to my post -

Wes Chormicle wrote:
1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY came to
us, we did not go to them.

Understood. I should not have mentioned the three days as it not
necessarily a cooling off period - but understood.

2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items may be
listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12 ea."

Excellent news. Good work. That covers "each item or grouping of items".

3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature of the
metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases are considered
final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.

Then, you appear to be protected - to the extent of that general
language and "intent" which is may or may not be legally open to
interpretation - and it would seem incumbent upon the sellers to prove
you pressured them or acted in bad faith. Consider adding, with the
help of an attorney, the part about having explained and reviewed the
appraisal. There are issues, as I understand it, of professional
advantages in such dealings as appraisals followed by final purchase by
the appraisor. All kinds of laws are enacted to require disclosure of
such advantages in myriad professions.


And who decides what is fair?

Odd now that you ask that question. In the past, you have always stated
publicly that you are fair and honest. Even if everyone in this
*public* forum agrees with you - it doesn't make it so to those who feel
cheated whether rightly or not. I'd be reluctant to solicit character
witnesses from a newsgroup for litigation - however, I have NO reason to
doubt that you have plenty of character witnesses in your community.



For instance, on the circulated common
Morgan's, is $11 fair? How about $10, or $9, or $7, or $4? The bottom line
is the seller must determine what is fair to him. And the buyer (me) must
determine what is fair to the buyer. If I pay to little, they will go
somewhere else and I will soon be out of inventory, and shortly thereafter,
out of business. If the buyer (me) pays to much, I will soon have a store
full of coins, and no buyers. And shortly thereafter, be out of business.

If I bought 20 of thier Peace dollars at $11, and 15 went into the $15 tray,
and I am able to price 5 more at $18-$23 each, am I a bad guy?

IRL is a common Usenet saying. IRL I am as bluntly honest as I am here.
You seem like a very nice person at heart and have many an
adherents to this notion. Aside from my interpretations of what you
write in here for all the world to see and comment upon - I don't
necessarily think you are a bad guy. While I have failed in the past to
understand why you sometimes post as you do, I have no wish that
anything bad fall upon your doorstep. I also did not take issue with
the prices you offered or your appraisal or even you ability to do so.
I responded to the public information you offered.

I have some past experience with estate liquidation and venture capital.
I understand that some less fair entities will sweep in and scoop up
inventory of the aged - or anyone else for that matter - without a
second thought.

The question is one of a professional assessment of your circumstances -
amplified I would imagine by the fact that it is your own community
where you do business. You have admitted that the seller's son had
numerous conversations about his mother's belongings. Upon what
authority does the son act on his mother's behalf and what is the son's
motivation? The son has admittedly assigned a preliminary value to what
he sees as a collection and you admittedly viewed otherwise. The
difference in value - as I understand it - between the third party son's
dubious valuation and your purchase is roughly 4/1. Based only on this
information - a red flag rises.

Great care is needed when dealing with a family's keepsakes, no matter
the value. In fact, the larger the value and the greater the number of
interested parties/heirs, the more care needed. In my personal exposure
to such dealings and based upon experience passed down, ownership is
ascertained, heirs identified and rights are determined, every item is
appraised and the items are cataloged and photographed. If there is any
need for a delay in sale or movement of the items before sale, a third
party is hired to ship at the appraised values and stored in an
environment also adequately insured. The need for this became evident
roughly 5% of the time when someone or something was misrepresented. A
willingness to deal with valuable keepsakes on the spot - as regards
liquidation - was a serious red flag and was at times acomodated
expedited documentation/removal where none of the assets were commingled
until thorough follow-up and time had been exhausted. The latter risks
bit back in the majority of the 5% of trouble. The above is a set of
extremes.

The other very important consideration with keepsakes or transactions of
curios/relics/numismatic value is strict discretion.

If you think on it, this dialogue reflects your situation in the most
rudimentary and direct form. I am quite possibly not considered here
as, "decent folk ... who know you as an ethical human being and honest
coin dealer", nor a charter member of "a fan club among us, and we're
all on the sidelines rooting and cheering for our guy". Usenet has
exposed me to folks just so described who turned out to be entirely
otherwise. If you only wanted assurance or validity from friendly
voices - and you said so - I might not have replied at all.

I can assure you this, however, with as much vigor as those who come to
your side based upon what was less than complete information provided up
front supplemented with added dialogue. If one of my very closest and
best friends called me lamenting in similar fashion - my reply would be
virtually the same - and possibly a bit less diplomatic. From what
little bit you might could have done in my admitted hindsight might well
provide an inkling of what you may do pro-actively now in this situation
and future events such as these.


--
JMark

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in
:


"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message
k.net...

Wes, I don't claim any authority whatsoever in this newsgroup, but
I think I speak on behalf of all the decent folks here on r.c.c.
who know you as an ethical human being and honest coin dealer. You
have a fan club among us, and we're all on the sidelines rooting
and cheering for our guy! But for the grace of God, this sort of
thing could happen to any one of us. Things are already ugly, but
even if they get uglier, I am confident that you will prevail in
the end. Keep up the good work!

Jag






Jag, you said it well. I can't agree more that Wes is one of the good
guys. It's sad that these people are taking advantage of him like this,
and that he's going to have to go thru this mess.

Wes, I wish you the best of luck with these potential scam artists. Yep,
the pessimistic side of me believes that they are scam artists, just
phishing to see how much money they can get out of you. I wonder if
they've tried to pull this stunt before. How much you wanna bet that
they'll want to 'settle' out of court?

--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in
k.net:


1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY
came to us, we did not go to them.

2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items
may be listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12
ea."

3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature
of the metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases
are considered final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.

And who decides what is fair? For instance, on the circulated
common Morgan's, is $11 fair? How about $10, or $9, or $7, or $4?
The bottom line is the seller must determine what is fair to him.
And the buyer (me) must determine what is fair to the buyer. If I
pay to little, they will go somewhere else and I will soon be out
of inventory, and shortly thereafter, out of business. If the
buyer (me) pays to much, I will soon have a store full of coins,
and no buyers. And shortly thereafter, be out of business.

If I bought 20 of thier Peace dollars at $11, and 15 went into the
$15 tray, and I am able to price 5 more at $18-$23 each, am I a bad
guy?





Considering you outlined the inventory, and the prices they were
getting, and they signed the form, which states all sales are final,
you've got a pretty good start, Wes. But, they'll say that you lied
about what they had, and they really had the valuable coins, worth $40K
each. How do you prove that they didn't? I don't know that you can,
unless you took pictures of the people with the coins in front of them,
as you were purchasing them. Like that's gonna happen.

I don't know how you can escape from people like this. I feel for you,
Wes.

--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in
k.net:


1. No "3 Day Cooling Off" exists in a situation like this. THEY
came to us, we did not go to them.

2. All item are listed on an appraisal form. Although some items
may be listed as "25 Common Date Circulated Morgan Dollars, $12
ea."

3. Bottom of the form reads in part, "Due to the volatile nature
of the metals and collectable coin markets, all sales and purchases
are considered final." The form is signed by the seller and buyer.

And who decides what is fair? For instance, on the circulated
common Morgan's, is $11 fair? How about $10, or $9, or $7, or $4?
The bottom line is the seller must determine what is fair to him.
And the buyer (me) must determine what is fair to the buyer. If I
pay to little, they will go somewhere else and I will soon be out
of inventory, and shortly thereafter, out of business. If the
buyer (me) pays to much, I will soon have a store full of coins,
and no buyers. And shortly thereafter, be out of business.

If I bought 20 of thier Peace dollars at $11, and 15 went into the
$15 tray, and I am able to price 5 more at $18-$23 each, am I a bad
guy?





Oh, and, NO, you're not a bad guy. You need to make a living, so, of
course you buy a bit low and sell for a bit of a profit. That's
understood by most people.

--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA