If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#11
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:52:02 -0600, "James Higby"
heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote: "gogu" wrote in message ... I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen, gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-) I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and making things less clear as opposed to more clear. But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing, Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea, Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia... I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that. I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical names were lacking in accuracy. I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used. I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read, write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet. How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge. Aram. |
Ads |
#12
|
|||
|
|||
"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:52:02 -0600, "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote: "gogu" wrote in message ... I could help you James if it has something to do with Hungarian or with linguistics in general, though in a limited degree... Even if I can't help you I have a good friend who is quite knowledgeable in the sector. OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen, gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-) I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and making things less clear as opposed to more clear. But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing, Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea, Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia... I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that. I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical names were lacking in accuracy. I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used. I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read, write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet. How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge. Aram. That never occurred to me. You might just have something there, Aram. And I love that term "romanization." James 'you say Xinjiang, I say Sinkiang.......let's call the whole thing off!' |
#13
|
|||
|
|||
"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... I am familiar with the Yale system and the Wade-Giles system of Romanization of Chinese. Both are pretty easily understood and used. I am convinced that the present system was invented by the Chinese government to both befuddle and confuse foreigners trying to read, write, and speak Chinese Mandarin using the English alphabet. How does one pronounce "X?" It keeps foreigners in their place, I think. Not too bright, but it does show who's in charge. Aram. I just googled up Wade-Giles. What a wealth of information! Thanks for the lead, and it'll be a while before I can come up for air. James |
#14
|
|||
|
|||
Ο "James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com έγραψε στο μήνυμα
... "gogu" wrote in message ... OK, I'll start with a simple one.When I was in high school I learned that the Islamic holy book was the KORAN, spelled thus. I knew it wasn't really spelled that way, as it is an Arabic word, written in Arabic, but spelled phonetically with the Western alphabet for those of us who do not read Arabic. Well, my friend says there is not an explanation to that and it's because of the same motive that there is McDonald and MacDonald, McQuinn and McQueen, gasolene and gasoline, aluminium and aluminum and so on ;-) I am not talking about issues that go back perhaps millennia, but recent arbitrary decisions by Americans writing for consumption by Americans and making things less clear as opposed to more clear. Well, gasoline was not known 1000 years ago ;-) So what is the reason for aluminium and gasoline ?! None, (I think)... But now all of a sudden the transliteration has become QU'RAN. In my view, this is not nearly as straightforward as KORAN. Why the QU instead of the simpler and unambiguous K? And what's the deal with the apostrophe? Again no apparent reason: just the same motive why Peking became Beijing, Mao Tse-dun became Mao Ze-dong, Teng Hsiao-ping became Deng Xiao-ping, Bombay became Mumbay, Birmania became Burma, Rumania became Romania, Cambodja became Campuchea, Alma Ata became Almaty, Gruzia became Georgia... I suppose he wants to say there is not a linguistic reason for that. I always told my students that the change in the Chinese transliterations was due to increased knowledge of China after the Nixon years. For the first time many cartographers became aware that their printed geographical names were lacking in accuracy. Yes, but this certainly does not explain the Rumania-Romania, Alma Ata-Almaty, Gruzia-Georgia, etc. All of them were quite known places, so it must be something other or even .... no reason :-) In Romania for instance it happened something quite strange: after communism took over around 1947, the writing of some words changed in romanian language. To be more precise, it changed the writing of some letters in the words: before-sunt, in communist era-sint, before-atat, in communism-atit, etc. Now after 1989 and the fall of communism the old way of writing came back ! The reason ? I don't know ! Certainly it's not an evolution of the language or something similar. (my note: the apostrophe I believe is for a "dead" "h" between U and R, something like quHran, the H been almost silent. Probably that way it's nearer to the real pronunciation as Arabs pronounce it). That certainly sounds plausible. The problem is, no one has ever given that explanation before. You're a pioneer, gogu! Well, not at all :-) When I was a young postgraduate student in Italy, I had some Arab friends at the university. Maybe my English is not so good but I generally grab quickly foreign languages (especially the Romanic ones). And especially the spoken form and not so much the written one... So I have noticed that they have that "dead" "h" in many words in their language. One example is the name of Arafat's organization: we are pronouncing it "Al Hatah", with a clear and sound "h" at the end. Well, they are pronouncing it with a dead "h" at the end which is almost not audible when they talk ! In Arab the city Cairo is Al Kahira, the "h" again been dead. And so on. Something similar is valid for the Italian: I was surprised at the beginning to listen the Italians calling the well known motorcycles Honda ... Onda ;-) Not the same reasons with Arab of course, but the same strange. So as to go back on the topic of coins, why are some unit coins of Arabic countries called RIALS while others are called RIYALS? Seems to me those two spellings represent identical sounds. Well, here my friends says that it only "seems" because in spoken language there is a difference between the two: rial is [ri-al], while riyal is [ri-yal]. That gets into the topic of phonemes, and I doubt that the people at Krause have any notion of what that's all about, nor do 99.9% of their users. Of course not. It is strange that the word "rial" and all its derivative forms survived in many Arabic countries, if we consider the fact that the word comes from the Hispanic real. I mean, I would expect to find it in the Magreb countries who had their share of influence by Spanish culture but I can't find an explanation for Arabic countries miles away from Spain. And something that you may didn't know: did you know that the dirham currency in different Arabic countries (and not only) and under different forms as dirham -dram comes from the ... Greek "dra(c)hma" ? In Armenia it is called dram, in Morocco and United Arab Emirates dirham and in Qatar it is surviving as dirham, a subdivision of the national currency which is the .... rial :-) He also says that there is a more appropriate ng for such questions with posters who are much more knowledgeable than him (he even used the expression "geniuses" :-)), that's sci.lang. Thanks, I'll check that out. And thanks for taking the time to ask your friend and summarize your conversation here on rcc. No problem, I am always happy to help when I can my fellow rcc-ers ! -- E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane! F.d.A Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html James |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
John F. Kennedy 35th President Medal | Starshyne | Coins | 2 | October 16th 04 04:36 PM |
FA: Deeds of Valor Book on Medal of Honor Winners, c. 1906 | fishnet531 | General | 0 | June 19th 04 04:30 PM |
Contest! Pony Express Medal, Contest! Prize! | Dale Hallmark | Coins | 18 | March 16th 04 05:22 PM |
Military (type) medal ribbon & suspension ring Quantity needed | oly2059 | Coins | 0 | January 31st 04 01:37 PM |
US Mint 2003 National Wildlife Refuge System Centennial Medal | Art O'Connell | Coins | 0 | August 19th 03 06:49 PM |