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#11
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 10, 8:40 pm, (Paul Ciszek) wrote:
"Plated" in what sense? Not electroplating, obviously, but bonding silver leaf onto a copper coin sounds like a lot of work. Or was it more like our modern "sandwich" coins, with the edge somehow concealed? And the winner is: Door Number Two. Your second answer is the correct one, closest to it. Yep, this no doubt took a lot of work. But labor in ancient times was extremely cheap. Coins were minted by slaves, same as with was much else time-intensive manual labor. Counterfeits were likely made by slaves too, or by desperate poor people, given that punishment was typically death. Greek-era silver-plated counterfeits were made, for the most part, with silver foil (thicker than leaf) hammered onto a heated copper planchet. Sometimes you see not two layers but three, with the third layer being the intermediary layer separating the silver and copper, which is widely referred to in the literature as the "eutectic" layer (you'd have to have read the literature to know this, but not knowing never stopped anybody online from making definitive pronouncements about this or anything else!). It's unclear though whether the eutectic layer was a copper-silver solder applied to help bond the silver plating to the copper core or was formed when the silver-plated planchet was heated, partially melting and interdiffusing the silver and copper. It's likely, in my view, that both methods were used at different places and times. Yet another method thought to have been used was dipping a base-metal planchet in a silver solution, leading to a thinner coating of silver. Gold-plated fakes also exist, typically gold foil or multiple layers of gold leaf over a silver planchet. In Roman times, official "silvered" coins -- mostly bronze with a very thin layer of silver that wore away quickly through circulation or corrosion -- were produced using still another method. These "surface enriched" coins were made through creating a planchet of bronze/copper alloyed with a small amount of silver, then pickling it with an acid before striking, with the acid leaching copper from the surface and leaving a thin layer of nearly pure silvering. These coins, however, aren't considered fourrees though they're related to them. I have a site about fourrees he http://rg.ancients.info/fourees -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
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#12
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 10, 3:40 pm, Anka wrote:
Vertigris? Is that the alternative spelling of verdigris? ~Anka You didn't respond to my suggestion that you share what you know about verdigris, though I can't say I'm very surprised. There's actually a lot of interesting substance regarding this, but I suppose you'd need to be interested in substance. A lot of people confuse verdigris (harmless) with bronze disease (harmful). The Owl fourree I pointed to may in fact have bronze disease, though to me from the pic anyway it looks more like verdigris. We'll see when it arrives. If you're not interested in verdigris, how about sharing your experiences with or knowledge about bronze disease? You collect ancients, so you must have some insights. Something, anything? Or just point out more typose if you like. Just left one there to make it easier for you. g -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#13
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Counterfeit coin
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... Greek-era silver-plated counterfeits were made, for the most part, with silver foil (thicker than leaf) hammered onto a heated copper planchet. Sometimes you see not two layers but three, with the third layer being the intermediary layer separating the silver and copper, which is widely referred to in the literature as the "eutectic" layer OK OK. Stop now. That is just nonsense. The word "eutectic" has a very specific and precise meaning. You are either misquoting accurate sources, or accurately quoting ignorant sources. You're not relying on your "expert" friends ar PCGS again, are you? Lead/tin solder has a eutectic composition. Silver/copper alloys also have a eutectic composition. So does iron/carbon (my personal favourite). However - "eutectic" doesn *not* mean: "that layer of alloy between the two metals". (you'd have to have read the literature to know this, but not knowing never stopped anybody online from making definitive pronouncements about this or anything else!). Definitive pronouncements are appropriate when they a (1) correct, and (2) used to counter ignorant usage. If you are referring to an alloy of 28.1% / 71.9% Cu/Ag then fine. Go ahead and use the term correctly. If not, then kindly use the term "alloy". I know *you* don't care about precision in language (or metallurgy) but some of us object to your journalistic dumbing-down tendencies. And yes - it *does* matter. -- Jeff R. |
#14
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Counterfeit coin
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Jun 10, 3:40 pm, Anka wrote: Vertigris? Is that the alternative spelling of verdigris? ~Anka You didn't respond to my suggestion that you share what you know about verdigris, though I can't say I'm very surprised. There's actually a lot of interesting substance regarding this, but I suppose you'd need to be interested in substance. A lot of people confuse verdigris (harmless) with bronze disease (harmful). No doubt any reaction which produces HCl ( "bronze disease") is harmful, but is verdigris actually harmless? You'd agree, surely, that verdigris is one (or more) of a number of copper compounds, yes? Where do you think the copper comes from? The atmosphere? -- Jeff R. |
#15
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 14, 12:14�am, "Jeff R." wrote:
"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message ... On Jun 10, 3:40 pm, Anka wrote: Vertigris? �Is that the alternative spelling of verdigris? ~Anka You didn't respond to my suggestion that you share what you know about verdigris, though I can't say I'm very surprised. There's actually a lot of interesting substance regarding this, but I suppose you'd need to be interested in substance. A lot of people confuse verdigris (harmless) with bronze disease (harmful). No doubt any reaction which produces HCl ( "bronze disease") is harmful, but is verdigris actually harmless? You'd agree, surely, that verdigris is one (or more) of a number of copper compounds, yes? Where do you think the copper comes from? The atmosphere? -- Jeff R. Hee-hee. I knew you'd be responding to "eutectic", so I figured I'd let you have this one as well. Watch him wiggle. ;-) |
#16
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Counterfeit coin
"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message ... Hee-hee. I knew you'd be responding to "eutectic", so I figured I'd let you have this one as well. Watch him wiggle. ;-) Hi Phil. Pretty sad, id'n'it? ..that I am *that* predictable. He won't wiggle. He'll just accuse me of being a pedantic Thistlebottom and then cite half a dozen experienced coin dealers who have been using that word that way for umpteen years and therefore they must be right and I am wrong. Y'know - I don't mind religious proselytizers; I can ignore Chinese scammers and porn-site promoters... (etc.) I just am irritated beyond reason by his own particular brand of pseudo-intellectualism. He makes us *real* intellectuals look bad. -- Jeff R. (he won't get *that*, either) |
#17
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 13, 6:41�pm, Reid Goldsborough
wrote: On Jun 10, 3:40 pm, Anka wrote: Vertigris? �Is that the alternative spelling of verdigris? ~Anka You didn't respond to my suggestion that you share what you know about verdigris, though I can't say I'm very surprised. There's actually a lot of interesting substance regarding this, but I suppose you'd need to be interested in substance. A lot of people confuse verdigris (harmless) with bronze disease (harmful). The Owl fourree I pointed to may in fact have bronze disease, though to me from the pic anyway it looks more like verdigris. We'll see when it arrives. If you're not interested in verdigris, how about sharing your experiences with or knowledge about bronze disease? You collect ancients, so you must have some insights. Something, anything? Or just point out more typose if you like. Just left one there to make it easier for you. g -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer:http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur:http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit:http://rg.ancients.info/bogos All I know about verdigris is what I see and read in garden catalogs and city tour books, so I know just enough *not* to spout off about its connection to numismatics. I'll just sit back and let the RCC experts do that. Besides, I was never good in chemistry. That being said... Typose? Is that a kind of sugar? Anka ------- reaching for her Renaissance Wax |
#18
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 14, 7:40 am, Anka wrote:
All I know about verdigris is what I see and read in garden catalogs and city tour books, so I know just enough *not* to spout off about its connection to numismatics. I'll just sit back and let the RCC experts do that. Besides, I was never good in chemistry. RCC experts. LOL. Like the two who did in fact respond to my post about verdigris/bronze disease. Yep, experts! You sure are good at picking them out, the experts. LOL. Sorry, being redundant here. Maybe you should team up with one of them and do another article, you know, to topple the established wisdom. LOL. There I go again. But I'd advise not doing the same as you did before, boldly pronouncing that you spent a year doing research but conveniently ignoring the research that refutes your "new paradigm," and consequently being refuted in turn by everybody in ancient numismatics. LOL. Ouch, I have to stop this. My sides are starting to hurt. I didn't mean everyone, of course, just David Sear, Wayne Sayles, David Vagi, T.V. Buttrey, Oliver Hoover ... and others. True experts. Your "experts" are better ignored. Time is too valuable. My time. Then again, you like calling people on their typos here, so spend your time as you see fit. Free world. Well, not all of it. Anyway, since no one knowledgeable seems interested in talking seriously about this, there's no point really in sharing the print references I have here or talking in detail about the information in them. But there is some pretty good information on the Web about this, though as usual you have to be careful because there's misinformation out there too, from a quick Google search primarily from those who as I said before are confusing verdigris and bronze disease. Maybe your "experts" can comment on what's on the Web, pointing to links and offering their expert views. LOL. Sorry. This would be valuable, or at least interesting, but they of course have no interest in the substance of this, just in making their idiot denunciations. Sorry, I meant expert denunciations. LOL. OK then. Well, can't wait for this Owl fourree to arrive. Fun stuff. Interesting too how this thread has played out, isn't it, with you responding first with your sage comments. I think this is the first time a thread here has played itself out this way. I'd throw in another LOL but I'm played out too. Bye, for now. -- Email: (delete "remove this") Consumer: http://rg.ancients.info/guide Connoisseur: http://rg.ancients.info/glom Counterfeit: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos |
#19
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Counterfeit coin
On Jun 14, 1:53�pm, Reid Goldsborough
wrote: snip Maybe your "experts" can comment on what's on the Web, pointing to links and offering their expert views. LOL. Sorry. This would be valuable, or at least interesting, but they of course have no interest in the substance of this, just in making their idiot denunciations. Sorry, I meant expert denunciations. So I guess you're sticking with your idiotic statement that verdigris is harmless. |
#20
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Counterfeit coin
"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message ... On Jun 14, 1:53�pm, Reid Goldsborough wrote: snip Maybe your "experts" can comment on what's on the Web, pointing to links and offering their expert views. LOL. Sorry. This would be valuable, or at least interesting, but they of course have no interest in the substance of this, just in making their idiot denunciations. Sorry, I meant expert denunciations. So I guess you're sticking with your idiotic statement that verdigris is harmless. Looks like it, doesn't it. -- Jeff R. |
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