Newbie question- How to ID fakes? Seminars or classes?

Hi:

I collected coins as a kid, and have kind of jumped back in lately.
One of my concerns is buying counterfeit coins. I have some books on
the topic, but I wondered if anyone ever gave courses or seminars on
this topic, such as at a large coin show (I have never been to any
coins shows except our local one- which is more of a sale). I suspect
a good course on the topic would be very valuable, especially if one
has the chance to look at some actual fakes in hand. I mean, how can
one get experience with ID'ing fakes without ever seeing a fake and
knowing it is one? For someone not in the business, this would be
hard, I think.

I am doing many foreign coin type sets, and many of the books I have
seen focus on US coins. I prefer not to buy slabbed coins, and to be
honest, many of the coins I am buying are not worth being graded, even
at a higher grade, and so you don't see them often in slabs (I suspect
that these are therefore not the targets of counterfeiters either).
Things like the Mexican "Caballito" peso, Panama Balboas, various
crowns and silver coins, etc. Nice coins, but not many are worth
paying $25-30 to have graded, so it is generally not an option.

Any suggestions would be apprectiated. I did buy one coin (US Indian
$5 gold piece) that was a fake, apparently these are a relatively
common fake, and was able to return it. But I couldn't tell, and that
has made me a little bit cautious.

I have had my eye on some coins on eBay, and even purchased a few (all
for low $), but eBay really has me worried, even with feedback ratings
and all. I don't know that I'd even buy a non-slabbed expensive coin
on eBay, but sometimes that is the best source. For example I saw a
1925 Guatemala One Quetzal on eBay, a coin I will eventually try and
get (when I have the $$$). A rare coin, not one you see often.

My default a this point is to largely stick to dealers I know and
trust, but that eliminates eBay, and going to large coin shows where
you know nobody. And I'd like to get beyond trusting someone else,
and really know what I am looking at.

Thanks in advance for any advice. I hope this isn't too much of a
newbie question for this newsgroup.

andyd

adonnelly AT austin DOT rr DOT com

On Mon, 09 Aug 2004 18:57:09 GMT, Andyd is alleged to have
written:
Hi There!

Identifying fakes can be anywhere from very simple to very complex. Some gold
coins are so well done that it takes an expert with a room full of equipment to
be sure. Some are so obvious they scream at you.

First, get to know the authentic coins of the series you're going to collect.
Using $5Gold as an example, be sure you know what the mintmark on the 1909-O
looks like. Because changing a D to an O is very common.

Get to learn the diagnostics of the common counterfeits for the series you care
about. The PCGS Guide to grading and counterfeit detection is helpful here.

There is currently a great, unending ethical debate about the possession of
counterfeits here in RCC. Such possession is technically illegal, but several of
us do have black cabinets. I keep counterfeits of the series I collect, one for
each type of counterfeit. I find this helpful. I currently own 5 1913 liberty
5c, each counterfeited by a different method, each labeled as to where and what
the diagnostics are. I used to have 6, but I recently destroyed one when I got a
better example of the altered date technique.

All of the above take time. Depending on how many coins you see, maybe a lot of
time. There is a grading service called ANACS and they are the best when it
comes to detecting bogus coins and are much more reasonably priced than PCGS or
NGC. If you have suspect coins, send them to ANACS. ANACS also offers free
verbal opinions at most of the larger coin shows, you can save some money there.

I believe the ANA sometimes offers classes on counterfeit detection and I've
never heard anyone say an ANA class wasn't worthwhile. there are also
occasionally seminar's at the larger shows.

Best advice: with coins that are commonly counterfeited, only buy certified
coins until you're confident you can spot a fake.

Bruce

Andyd wrote
I collected coins as a kid, and have kind of jumped back in lately.
One of my concerns is buying counterfeit coins. I have some books ...

I just bought the ANA self-study course in counterfeit detection.
They also offer the course at their campus in Colorado Springs in the
summer. I also just bought the PCGS book on Grading and Counterfeit
detection.

All are helpful. All are limited.

Michael
ANA R162953

Andyd wrote:
... how can
one get experience with ID'ing fakes without ever seeing a fake and
knowing it is one?

Fakes are revealed because they fail to conform to the real item.
Studying fakes is not the path to protecting yourself against them.

Take an example: the 1916-D Mercury Dime. The PCGS website has an
article about counterfeit detection with the headline "264,000
struck... over half a million in collections." There are many
different kinds of fakes. PCGS shows how to recognize the diagnostics
of the genuine item.

In his monthly column for The Numismatist, ANAAB chief J. P. Martin
(now with ICG) did the same thing. He would write up a phony coin
someone submitted and show where it failed to match the real item.
Knowing the real item is the key.

I am doing many foreign coin type sets, and many of the books I have
seen focus on US coins.

You just need to see more books. George Frederick Kolbe, Remy Bourne,
and Wayne Homrem are perhaps the best known book dealers. There are
many others. You mention going to large shows. Have you made good
contacts with literature sellers at those shows?

Things like the Mexican "Caballito" peso, Panama Balboas, ... a
1925 Guatemala One Quetzal ...

Many of the books you will need will be in Spanish. You might also
consider subscribing to any of the European numismatic magazines.

I did buy one coin (US Indian
$5 gold piece) that was a fake, apparently these are a relatively
common fake, and was able to return it. But I couldn't tell, and that
has made me a little bit cautious.

I have seen several lately. The huge volume of fake U.S. gold in the
numismatics is an unstated problem. Most of the time, the gold is
real. These coins were made in the Middle East when Americans
believed that gold was "illegal" except for "numismatic" items. So,
two situations worked for counterfeiting. One was that making ANY
coin (Sovereigns were popular) was one way to turn bullion into a
convenient form. Again, the gold was good. Also, with the U.S.
markets, so-called "numismatic" items brought (and bring) a nice
mark-up, 40% to 100% for common examples, such as $5 Liberties and
Indians. Half and Quarter Eagle Indians present a special problem
because colletors are easily fooled by the incuse design. I met a
dealer (call him X) who showed me a few fake golds. He said that an
experienced numismatist can tell the fakes. I also visited with
another dealer up the road who showed me a fake $5 Indian... which he
got from Dealer X -- who made good on the numismatic margin, of
course. I would never buy numismatic US gold that was not slabbed and
even "common" US gold would need to be authenticated by an expert who
was not the same "expert" selling it to me.

... but eBay really has me worried, even with feedback ratings ...

They can be manipulated. Also, we just saw an example here where
several eBay identities were "outed." So, there is no personal
privacy protection on eBay. Obviously, a lot of people are very happy
with them, and their success is a result of the valuable service they
perform. Even so, I am not an eBay user.

For example I saw a 1925 Guatemala One Quetzal on eBay, ....

Genuine? How do you know? Is the seller a member of the ANA or IAPN
or PNG? How do you know? What protections do you have?

My default a this point .... going to large coin shows where
you know nobody.

You go to enough large shows and you get to know people pretty quickly
if you make the effort. You can run off a quick hundred business
cards with your picture and hand them out to dealers. You can
volunteer to help the show organizers with details. (I write, of
course. I also speak at the Numismatic Theaters and, now and then, I
exhibit. At the upcoming Pittsburgh ANA, I will be volunteering at
the YN Table.) There are a lot of ways to stand out from the crowd --
and dealers are "people people." They know you. They certainly
remember your face, even if they do not know your name and what you
collect.


Michael
ANA R-162953

So much to learn, so much to know. The problem with doing type sets
of various countries around the world is that is it extremely
difficult to become familiar with the real coins. I am currently
working on type sets for 6-8 countries in addition to my US type set.
At least the nice thing is many of these coins are quite inexpensive.
I also intend on starting some US series, probably with some of my
favorite coins from the early to mid 20th century, and for those I can
probably learn much of what I need to know. But for others, I guess I
will have to do slabs or only work with dealers that I know. The
problem is that even in a relatively large city like Austin, TX, there
are very few dealers here, and foreign coins selection is limited. I
don't have a problem with eBay as long as I feel comfortable with the
item. Like the Guatemala one quetzal I mentioned that I finally saw
on eBay. It was genuine, or at least it was certified and slabbed,
and if I am going to spend that kind of $$$ on a coin, certified and
slabbed is probably the way to go.

andyd


On 10 Aug 2004 05:47:15 -0700, (Michael E.
Marotta) wrote:

Andyd wrote:
... how can
one get experience with ID'ing fakes without ever seeing a fake and
knowing it is one?

Fakes are revealed because they fail to conform to the real item.
Studying fakes is not the path to protecting yourself against them.

Take an example: the 1916-D Mercury Dime. The PCGS website has an
article about counterfeit detection with the headline "264,000
struck... over half a million in collections." There are many
different kinds of fakes. PCGS shows how to recognize the diagnostics
of the genuine item.

In his monthly column for The Numismatist, ANAAB chief J. P. Martin
(now with ICG) did the same thing. He would write up a phony coin
someone submitted and show where it failed to match the real item.
Knowing the real item is the key.

I am doing many foreign coin type sets, and many of the books I have
seen focus on US coins.

You just need to see more books. George Frederick Kolbe, Remy Bourne,
and Wayne Homrem are perhaps the best known book dealers. There are
many others. You mention going to large shows. Have you made good
contacts with literature sellers at those shows?

Things like the Mexican "Caballito" peso, Panama Balboas, ... a
1925 Guatemala One Quetzal ...

Many of the books you will need will be in Spanish. You might also
consider subscribing to any of the European numismatic magazines.

I did buy one coin (US Indian
$5 gold piece) that was a fake, apparently these are a relatively
common fake, and was able to return it. But I couldn't tell, and that
has made me a little bit cautious.

I have seen several lately. The huge volume of fake U.S. gold in the
numismatics is an unstated problem. Most of the time, the gold is
real. These coins were made in the Middle East when Americans
believed that gold was "illegal" except for "numismatic" items. So,
two situations worked for counterfeiting. One was that making ANY
coin (Sovereigns were popular) was one way to turn bullion into a
convenient form. Again, the gold was good. Also, with the U.S.
markets, so-called "numismatic" items brought (and bring) a nice
mark-up, 40% to 100% for common examples, such as $5 Liberties and
Indians. Half and Quarter Eagle Indians present a special problem
because colletors are easily fooled by the incuse design. I met a
dealer (call him X) who showed me a few fake golds. He said that an
experienced numismatist can tell the fakes. I also visited with
another dealer up the road who showed me a fake $5 Indian... which he
got from Dealer X -- who made good on the numismatic margin, of
course. I would never buy numismatic US gold that was not slabbed and
even "common" US gold would need to be authenticated by an expert who
was not the same "expert" selling it to me.

... but eBay really has me worried, even with feedback ratings ...

They can be manipulated. Also, we just saw an example here where
several eBay identities were "outed." So, there is no personal
privacy protection on eBay. Obviously, a lot of people are very happy
with them, and their success is a result of the valuable service they
perform. Even so, I am not an eBay user.

For example I saw a 1925 Guatemala One Quetzal on eBay, ....

Genuine? How do you know? Is the seller a member of the ANA or IAPN
or PNG? How do you know? What protections do you have?

My default a this point .... going to large coin shows where
you know nobody.

You go to enough large shows and you get to know people pretty quickly
if you make the effort. You can run off a quick hundred business
cards with your picture and hand them out to dealers. You can
volunteer to help the show organizers with details. (I write, of
course. I also speak at the Numismatic Theaters and, now and then, I
exhibit. At the upcoming Pittsburgh ANA, I will be volunteering at
the YN Table.) There are a lot of ways to stand out from the crowd --
and dealers are "people people." They know you. They certainly
remember your face, even if they do not know your name and what you
collect.


Michael
ANA R-162953

Bruce Hickmott wrote:

First, get to know the authentic coins of the series you're going to collect.
Using $5Gold as an example, be sure you know what the mintmark on the 1909-O
looks like. Because changing a D to an O is very common.

I just had an experience with another coin type. The Mint used
different punches on long-running series. I compared the Mint Mark
across years and found a difference, of course. Comparing it to
another from the same year was more helpful. This is why we "buy the
book before we buy the coin." You have to know the subject matter.

Get to learn the diagnostics of the common counterfeits ...
I just bought the PCGS Grading & Counterfeits book and I just bought
the ANA Counterfeit Detection course. What I got from them so far is
a strong lesson in paying attention to details. With the 1909-S
(VDB) cent, the 1916-D Mercury Dime, and others, you will still find
the old fakes floating around at shows and in shops. You see them in
collections. It is convenient when a fake is so well known that you
can point it out in a book. That sort of clinches the argument.
Otherwise, as I said, the value in the courses and books, is helping
you learn to REALLY EXAMINE any item and know the originals.

I keep counterfeits of the series I collect, one for
each type of counterfeit. I find this helpful. I currently own 5 1913 liberty
5c, each counterfeited by a different method ....

I get the point, Bruce, and I understand the positive aspect to your
motive and motivation. And that's fine as far as it goes. In the case
of the 1913 Liberty 5 Cent Nickel, other, more basic, knowledge sort
of helps, eh? I mean, it is like the Alexander Dekadrachm that Ian
saw on eBay. He said, "Only 20 are known." and Jorg replied, "So you
figured one would show up in an unreserved auction on eBay?"

... ANACS also offers free verbal opinions
at most of the larger coin shows ...

Good point! And our correspondent says that he goes to larger shows,
so this is a good path to follow. In fact, other grading services
attend also, of course. It is one of the many reasons that I do not
fritter away my pocket money on impulsive purchases, but save my hard
earned wages for major conventions -- though I do spend at coin shops
when I travel, just to get to know people more than anything else.
_ALL_ of the major services attend the ANA shows. ANACS makes a
practice of getting to the regionals, state shows, etc., but you can
find the one of the others there sometimes. And there are other
experts. I remember bumping into David W. Lange at an ANA convention.
Who better to ask? Speaking of your Nickels, Gloria Peters and Cindy
Mahon only recently stopped making the MSNS shows all the way from
California. Again, who better to ask than an expert?

Michael
ANA R-162953

On 10 Aug 2004 06:10:41 -0700, (Michael E. Marotta) is
alleged to have written:

Bruce Hickmott wrote:

First, get to know the authentic coins of the series you're going to collect.
Using $5Gold as an example, be sure you know what the mintmark on the 1909-O
looks like. Because changing a D to an O is very common.

I just had an experience with another coin type. The Mint used
different punches on long-running series. I compared the Mint Mark
across years and found a difference, of course. Comparing it to
another from the same year was more helpful. This is why we "buy the
book before we buy the coin." You have to know the subject matter.


Oh, yes. If I knew better where his interests were, I'd have pointed him to a
more detailed book.


Get to learn the diagnostics of the common counterfeits ...
I just bought the PCGS Grading & Counterfeits book and I just bought
the ANA Counterfeit Detection course. What I got from them so far is
a strong lesson in paying attention to details. With the 1909-S
(VDB) cent, the 1916-D Mercury Dime, and others, you will still find
the old fakes floating around at shows and in shops. You see them in
collections. It is convenient when a fake is so well known that you
can point it out in a book. That sort of clinches the argument.
Otherwise, as I said, the value in the courses and books, is helping
you learn to REALLY EXAMINE any item and know the originals.


Agreed. I've saw omega counterfeit High relief's on sale as authentic by
reputable (though apparently not detail oriented) dealer. He gave me a Crunch
bar for pointing it out to him, once he was done being embarrassed.


I keep counterfeits of the series I collect, one for
each type of counterfeit. I find this helpful. I currently own 5 1913 liberty
5c, each counterfeited by a different method ....

I get the point, Bruce, and I understand the positive aspect to your
motive and motivation. And that's fine as far as it goes. In the case
of the 1913 Liberty 5 Cent Nickel, other, more basic, knowledge sort
of helps, eh? I mean, it is like the Alexander Dekadrachm that Ian
saw on eBay. He said, "Only 20 are known." and Jorg replied, "So you
figured one would show up in an unreserved auction on eBay?"


The 1913's are simply illustrations of the technique. In liberty 5c, you don't
see many counterfeit or altered coins as compared to other series. I saw a LOT
of fake 1913's in the 1970's, though they dried up it seems after that. So i got
a lot of my examples then. Adding mintmarks to 1912 's is also popular.

... ANACS also offers free verbal opinions
at most of the larger coin shows ...

Good point! And our correspondent says that he goes to larger shows,
so this is a good path to follow. In fact, other grading services
attend also, of course.

Yeah, but try to get the others to pay attention to you without waving a check
at them. My experience is that PCGS & NGC only have booth babes available to
take orders and don't normally offer free opinions. ANACS provides a wonderful
service to us collectors with that free verbal. They've saved me from two bad
purchases and helped me make several good ones better.

It is one of the many reasons that I do not
fritter away my pocket money on impulsive purchases, but save my hard
earned wages for major conventions -- though I do spend at coin shops
when I travel, just to get to know people more than anything else.
_ALL_ of the major services attend the ANA shows. ANACS makes a
practice of getting to the regionals, state shows, etc., but you can
find the one of the others there sometimes. And there are other
experts. I remember bumping into David W. Lange at an ANA convention.
Who better to ask? Speaking of your Nickels, Gloria Peters and Cindy
Mahon only recently stopped making the MSNS shows all the way from
California. Again, who better to ask than an expert?


I've never met lange, though of course i know of him. I have Gloria's & Cindy's
book on Liberty 5c and I buy from them on occasion. They were the ones who
finally found me a no rays Shield 5c proof that I liked. It's TOUGH to find nice
shield 5c proofs.

Bruce

"Michael E. Marotta" wrote:


Studying fakes is not the path to protecting yourself against them.


You post this as if it's a statement of fact but it's not, it's only
your opinion.

I posted this information before but you chose not to respond to it, I
wonder why?

Your opinion that the study of counterfeit coins is "a waste of time" is
not shared by everyone otherwise Lord Stewartby would not have written
an article entitled, "Two False Crowns Of James IV".

Spink must agree that the study of counterfeit coins is not a waste of
time either otherwise they would not have published the said article in
the August 2004 edition of their Numismatic Circular that has now been
published for over 114 years.

The coins mentioned in the article have passed through several famous
collections, one was part of the "Dundee" collection and was withdrawn
from auction sale on 19 February 1976.

The study of counterfeit coins has uncovered the fact that these two
coins were counterfeit so plainly your opinion that, "Studying fakes is
not the path to protecting yourself against them", is wrong as it can be
a great help. Billy

"note.boy" wrote:
Your opinion that the study of counterfeit coins is "a waste of time" is
not shared by everyone otherwise Lord Stewartby would not have written
an article entitled, "Two False Crowns Of James IV".

A copy of the August 2004 Numismatic Circular is on its way to me now.
I will let you know when I read the article.

Michael

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 16:41:30 GMT, Andyd is alleged to have
written:



Oh, yes. If I knew better where his interests were, I'd have pointed him to a
more detailed book.


I thought I included that in my original post. My main interest is
foreign type sets. This might be tough, as I doubt there is a book on
coutnerfeits the variety of foreign coins that I am doing (right now i
am working on 6-8 countries). IDing fakes in a series is one thing,
doing type sets, especially of numerous foreign countries, would seem
to me to be much more difficult. Plus, as one reply noted, some of
the books I may need are in Spanish (or other languages). But I don't
know Spanish well enough to read, and even if I did, picking up the
nuances of descriptions of IDing fake coins would probably be very
difficult in a language you aren't prefectly fluent in. It might be
hard even in your own language.

You might have, I'm mildly dyslexic and sometimes miss words. :-(

For a foreign type set, I'm not much help. I guess I'd start with a phone call
to the ANA library and if no hits call the ANS.

ANA : www.money.org
ANS : http://www.amnumsoc.org/

I'd also post here when you have specific examples. It's SCARY the depth of
expertise in R.C.C.

Bruce