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Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 31st 14, 09:10 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Trevor
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

I've sort of been in and out of this hobby over the years. I recently
discovered the 5 oz. ATB series. I bought one of the Arches coins,
because it's a National Park that's close to me, and I've enjoyed
visiting many times.

What are the opinions on this series? It turned out to be a lot larger
than I expected. And I find it interesting that it still appears to have
a 25 cent face value. Would this still be considered legal tender, or is
it technically just a large silver round? Is it likely to have long-term
numismatic value?
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  #2  
Old October 31st 14, 09:57 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Michael Benveniste[_2_]
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

On 10/31/2014 4:10 PM, Trevor wrote:
What are the opinions on this series? It turned out to be a lot
larger than I expected. And I find it interesting that it still
appears to have a 25 cent face value. Would this still be considered
legal tender, or is it technically just a large silver round? Is it
likely to have long-term numismatic value?


They are legal tender for $0.25 as mandated by the enabling
legislation. Except for a few legal corner cases, it has little
meaning. Consider it a large silver round or a thin hockey puck
as you please.

Long-term numismatic value is harder to guess. I guessed that the
2010 issues would have numismatic value due to the botched release
process, but as with the First Spouse Gold Coins, most of these trade
at near melt. Expect to pay a premium for coins slabbed PL, DMPL, or
SP70; I suspect that premium will endure as long as the registry set
game remains popular.

--
Mike Benveniste -- (Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz
  #3  
Old November 1st 14, 12:50 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Peter Irwin
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

Michael Benveniste wrote:
On 10/31/2014 4:10 PM, Trevor wrote:
What are the opinions on this series? It turned out to be a lot
larger than I expected. And I find it interesting that it still
appears to have a 25 cent face value. Would this still be considered
legal tender, or is it technically just a large silver round? Is it
likely to have long-term numismatic value?


They are legal tender for $0.25 as mandated by the enabling
legislation. Except for a few legal corner cases, it has little
meaning.


The face value is primarily intended as an attempt to have the coin
protected by international monetary law. Almost all countries are
signatories to agreements to prosecute forgeries of foreign money
under the same terms as they prosecute forgeries of their own money.

Peter.
--

  #4  
Old November 1st 14, 05:38 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

No, the denomination is necessary because American coin collectors have had it drummed into their heads for more than fifty years that a round thingie WITHOUT a denomination is a medal, and that medals are absolutely and totally worthless, even more worthless than foreign coins which are also worthless.

The mantra of the average U.S. Collector is that if it ain't in the Red Book, and if it don't have a denomination, then it is total dog****.

Oly
  #5  
Old November 2nd 14, 05:43 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Michael Benveniste[_2_]
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

On 11/1/2014 12:38 PM, wrote:

No, the denomination is necessary because American coin collectors
have had it drummed into their heads for more than fifty years that
round thingie WITHOUT a denomination is a medal, and that medals are
absolutely and totally worthless, even more worthless than foreign
coins which are also worthless.


You're both partially right. Adding a denomination makes the legal
status of "replicas/counterfeits" a lot easier to define, both
domestically and internationally. It's also true that U.S. collectors
seem to prefer coins with dates. For bullion products, that preference
was reinforced by the American Arts Commemorative Series medals, which
are not IRA eligible.

On the other hand, the 1992 Ben Franklin Firefighters medal has done
somewhat better in the secondary market than the 3 commemorative
dollar coins issued that year. And let's face it, coin collectors
are treating the First Spouse coins _and_ medals with equal disdain.

In terms of collector appeal, the ATB series not only suffers from the
"design by 2 committees" process of all non-legacy designs for new
U.S. coins, but also due to the virtual impossibility of coming up
with designs which looks good on both a standard-sized quarter and a
3" hockey puck.

--
Mike Benveniste --
(Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz

  #6  
Old November 2nd 14, 06:18 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

You write very long but still dodge the question regarding placing meaningless denominations on round pieces that would have been issued as medals years ago.

"Denomination" does not mean "date". And what U.S. coin has not been "dated" in recent years? (Yes, I know that the Jefferson Dollar and the WWII coins didn't show the actual years that they were made, and perhaps there are others - but no date? I think none.)

The Franklin Firefighter silver medals (and the Teddy Roosevelt National Parks/ Wildlife medals) can very frequently be purchased for next to nothing, simply because the poltroons can't look them up in the Red Book. Conversely, they are often wildly overpriced for the same reason.

No denomination means no inclusion in the Red Book, and that is the kiss of death in the simpleton's U.S. Coin market.

Oly
  #7  
Old November 2nd 14, 06:30 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

I would have to dig out some old books, but IIRC, the American Arts Gold medals were in the Red Book for a few years, but were dropped??? That's my recollection, perhaps a false memory.

They are good examples of how the U.S. Mint is a day late and a dollar short to most new markets.

The Mint makes the most numismatic money selling base metal coins at a healthy premium to their face values to coin accumulators (remember that most of the base metal coins cost less than 20% of face value to produce, save the cent and five cent coins).

The ATB Five Ounce hockey pucks came about simply because some member of Ed Moy's staff saw a few older ones (from the brief days of the earlier "five ounce craze") and thought they were neat enough to try again. No knowledgeable coin person ever had this idea.

Oly
  #8  
Old November 2nd 14, 07:46 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Michael Benveniste[_2_]
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

On 11/2/2014 12:18 PM, wrote:
You write very long but still dodge the question regarding placing
meaningless denominations on round pieces that would have been
issued as medals years ago.


I guess you missed the part where I wrote "They are legal tender for
$0.25 as mandated by the enabling legislation." That's just as
true for the various U.S. mint "rounds" today as it was for classic
commemoratives and the 1925 Norse Medal. If Congress says it's a
medal, it's a medal. If Congress says it's a coin, it's a coin.

The Franklin Firefighter silver medals (and the Teddy Roosevelt
National Parks/ Wildlife medals) can very frequently be purchased for
next to nothing, simply because the poltroons can't look them up in the
Red Book. Conversely, they are often wildly overpriced for the same
reason.


Generic $1 Modern Commemoratives are available retail at about $4 per
coin over spot. If you can find the Franklin at $5 over spot, please
let me in on the secret. After you make your pile, that is.

But I guess it still is 1993 here on Usenet, if people are still
using the Red Book instead of online sources or following what
stuff actually sells for at auction.

--
Mike Benveniste --
(Clarification Required)
You don't have to sort of enhance reality. There is nothing
stranger than truth. -- Annie Leibovitz

  #9  
Old November 2nd 14, 07:46 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

To avoid objections to my glib, fast composition, yes the intrinsic value of most modern clad coins is about 16% of their face (see the Coinflation website). Add in labor and other costs, the total cost of production is maybe 35% of face. Again, I'm not in the exact place to go dig out the books, but I'd bet that is close.

If the Mint can sell a $10. roll of clad quarters for $18.95, that's the path to big profits.

The Mint could probably drop every one of their precious metal products except the American Silver Eagle and their net numismatic profits would be undented.

Oly
  #10  
Old November 2nd 14, 07:51 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
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Default Opinions on ATB 5 oz. coins?

In these parts, the Franklin Firefighters medal is commonly offered at all kinds of prices, and I have occasionally bought multiple pieces in the original capsules at less than spot. My biggest cheapo haul in these things was from a veteran dealer. His mind must have been fuzzy that day, or he paid next to nothing for them, or both.

You get high marks for your repeated use of the phrase "enabling legislation". Very sophisticated.

Oly
 




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