Help Identifying Syriac? Work 16th/17th Century? (0/1)

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!

On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks

"TIA" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks


The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became,
which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of
Christ.

The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams

....

"TIA" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks


The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

....

"TIA" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks


The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams

....







Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became,
which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of
Christ.

The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams

....

The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams


I can state with certainty that no bookworm I have ever met has
expressed a belief in God, so they must all be atheists.

Al Smith wrote:

no bookworm I have ever met has expressed a belief in God, so
they must all be atheists.

No one I've ever met has won an Olympic medal so the human race must
all be bad at sports.

No rock I've ever met has described itself as hard, so all rocks must
be soft.


John
http://rarebooksinjapan.org

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks


The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

...

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks


The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams

...







Syriac being Arameic, the dialect of the Syrian Christians as they became,
which is of liturgical significance as possibly being the language of
Christ.

The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams

...




Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be
very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that
it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum
binding.

It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in
this case the work would be ancient indeed.

Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give
me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope.

"TIA" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks



The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams



Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be
very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that
it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum
binding.

....

A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have
a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire
frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations
in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark
only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every
8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold.


....


It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in
this case the work would be ancient indeed.

Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give
me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope.


....

I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and
Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty
of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that
the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't
dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or
Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help.

The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right
from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate
Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake.

The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit"

handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was
in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed
at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be
crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno.

A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century
especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels -
institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought
back in kit bags. Allegedly.

Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from
the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one
particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if
they only recieved intermittent use.

Does the book have a discernable title page ?



michael adams

....

"TIA" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks



The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams



Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be
very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that
it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum
binding.

....

A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have
a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire
frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations
in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark
only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every
8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold.


....


It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in
this case the work would be ancient indeed.

Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give
me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope.


....

I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and
Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty
of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that
the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't
dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or
Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help.

The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right
from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate
Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake.

The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit"

handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was
in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed
at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be
crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno.

follow up:

The Collegium Romanorum was the Jesuit College founded in Rome
by Pope Gregory in 1582. It was also known as the Gregorian
University. It was disbanded in 1870

quote

For the international Jesuit college (Collegium Romanum) he built
in 1582 the large edifice known as the Collegio Romano which was
occupied by the faculty and students of the Collegium Romanum
(Gregorian University) until the Piedmontese Government declared
it national property and expelled the Jesuits in 1870.

/quote

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07001b.htm



A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century
especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels -
institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought
back in kit bags. Allegedly.

Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from
the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one
particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if
they only recieved intermittent use.

Does the book have a discernable title page ?



michael adams

....

On Mon, 5 Dec 2005 10:53:34 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:29:36 -0000, "michael adams"
wrote:

"TIA" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 04 Dec 2005 17:45:48 +0000, TIA
wrote:

Hello,

I have recently discovered a book titled 'Rudi Syri' at the bottom of
a box of junk purchased at local auction.

However I have no idea what the work is about or its age and was
hoping that someone here would be able to help with the
identification.

The book appears to be in a 16/17th century vellum binding and has the
ink title 'Rudi Syri' on the spine. There is a printers device (see
photo) but other than that there are no other clues.

Any help would be much appreciated. Sorry if uploading images breaks
the rules but I don't know how else to describe the book!


Oh well, it looks like the images have not been uploaded!

You can see them at :

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image1.jpg

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image2.jpg

Thanks



The illustration is of the Virgin and Child so the book is presumably
Christian. If without any Western alphabet

At a guess Rudi[ments] of Syri[ac]

Such an informal title may simply indicate that the contents represent
a sample of printed Arameic.

Follow Up: Rudimantary was the name given to a class in Roman Catholic
Schools, Colleges, or Seminaries, above Figures and Below Latin in Jesuit
Schools. So possibly this was a text for use in the Rudimentary Class
in Syriac.


The bookworms were presumably atheists.



michael adams



Thanks Michael your theory sounds very plausible! I guess it will be
very difficult to gauge the age of this book. Other than the fact that
it is printed on laid paper and is in a 17th century style vellum
binding.

...

A lot of mould-made paper where the wire frame is prominent will have
a water-mark, sometimes in the form of a fluer-de-lys set into the wire
frame. ISTR the form changed occasionally as I have illustrations
in a reference I can't lay my hands on right now. IIRR the watermark
only occurs once or twice on every sheet so only occurs on every
8th, 4th, or whatever page, depending on the fold.


...


It's a pity you can't age a book simply by counting the worm holes, in
this case the work would be ancient indeed.

Hopefully there will be someone out there who can read Syriac and give
me a rough Idea to its title and printing data! I live in hope.


...

I've been having a quick scour through evolving Arameic Hebrew and
Arabic scripts on the Web without too much luck. There are plenty
of examples available it would seem. On the assumption that
the book is dated at all - although possibly spiritual works weren't
dated on purpose being timeless - finding some Araemeic Arabic or
Hebrew looking numbers in the work might be a help.

The Christian Church was active in the Middle East of course right
from the Time of Christ to the present day, and to associate
Christianity with purely Roman script is probably a mistake.

The - "Coll: Rom: Soe(?).Jes(?)"... er "Jesuit"

handwritten script at the top of the page suggests the book was
in a college library or institution somewhere. As already guessed
at. Jesuit College of Rome (?). But then Rome would presumably be
crawling with Jesuit Colleges. Dunno.

follow up:

The Collegium Romanorum was the Jesuit College founded in Rome
by Pope Gregory in 1582. It was also known as the Gregorian
University. It was disbanded in 1870

quote

For the international Jesuit college (Collegium Romanum) he built
in 1582 the large edifice known as the Collegio Romano which was
occupied by the faculty and students of the Collegium Romanum
(Gregorian University) until the Piedmontese Government declared
it national property and expelled the Jesuits in 1870.

/quote

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07001b.htm



A lot of such material came onto the market in the 20th century
especially after World War II. Both through legitimate channels -
institutions selling to top-end dealers, and as souvenirs brought
back in kit bags. Allegedly.

Also, the woodblock used for the illustration could be any age from
the 16th to the 18th. While the iconography might point to one
particular period, woodblocks might well last for centuries if
they only recieved intermittent use.

Does the book have a discernable title page ?



michael adams

...




Hi Michael,

Thanks for your time and efforts in trying to discover the origin and
date of this strange little book.

I have put up some more images of the pages from the book. Maybe
someone out there can give us some more detail.

http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image3.jpg
http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image4.jpg
http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image5.jpg
http://www.katyandjason.co.uk/Image6.jpg

The book does contain several watermarks although they are very hard
to make out and have been cropped in half at the top of the pages. The
image looks like an Angel funny enough.

There appears to be no clear title page and the book starts with
(Image2.jpg)

The idea that the book originally was located in a Jesuit College
could very well be true as there is a much later book mark from the
now defunct ST. BENEDICT'S ABBEY in FORT AUGUSTUS (Scotland) which I
believe through my little research was founded in the 1870's.

I guess when the library was broken up some of the books have found
there way to the various auction houses dotted about here.

Sadly there are no clues on the bookmark about the work or its
contents just a shelf number!

Thanks again Michael for all your help.