Why Is The Jukebox Market So Dead???

I've been casually collecting jukes since around 1978 or so and let me
tell you, in the last few years (maybe since 2004?) the market has
seemingly tanked, I mean bad. Is there any market for these anymore?
Its definately a buyers market...I just picked up a beautiful Seeburg
BL , restored including ALL chrome, for 850.00! 5 years ago this
would've fetched 2500.00 easily. It makes me wonder if these are even
worth restoring anymore. This BL has had at least 2k of work into it.
How are things with the Wurlitzers of the same era? I'm mostly a
Seeburg guy, but again, I'll grab anything for the right price.
Jay

On Sep 14, 1:35*pm, Septo wrote:
I've been casually collecting jukes since around 1978 or so and let me
tell you, in the last few years (maybe since 2004?) the market has
seemingly tanked, I mean bad. Is there any market for these anymore?
Its definately a buyers market...I just picked up a beautiful Seeburg
BL , restored including ALL chrome, for 850.00! *5 years ago this
would've fetched 2500.00 easily. It makes me wonder if these are even
worth restoring anymore. This BL has had at least 2k of work into it.
How are things with the Wurlitzers of the same era? I'm mostly a
Seeburg guy, but again, I'll grab anything for the right price.
Jay

i think one of the biggest problems is its very hard to find anyone to
work on them, younger generations dont care a hoot about them or
pinball machines. both industries dont do anything to get the young
people involved. i had a fellow price an old model a restored about 30
years ago for 25,000. 20 years later i could by the same car from him
for 7000. it still looked new. when i ask him about the price drop he
asked me if i could start t and drive it and my reply was ive never
driven one. he said how many people do you know that has. that being
said i think people need to realize that most jukeboxes arent work
near what they used to be. , especially the early 60s and up. youll
always find a lawyer, doctor, rich person whos got alot of money and
not to much common sense sometimes who will pay good money for one but
as a rule there not worth much. i do try to find the old ami boxes
just becaude i like them and i have almost all the good old 45s from
the 50s, 60, 70s to put into them. if i were buying them to resell i
woudnt buy any. just very few people who want them. these people in
the larger cities are sort of in a bind because if they try to dispose
of them the city will charge them for that so what i see is that
prices on jukeboxes will continue to fall, pinball machines will hold
some value but not like some people think unless the pinball wizards
that control this hobby start trying to get the younger generation
envolved. baseball card collecting went to the bottom back in the
early 90s and never has recovered. i think jukeboxes are going that
way but pinball machines still has a chance. jut my thoughts norm

On Sep 15, 4:35*am, Septo wrote:

I've been casually collecting jukes since around 1978 or so and let me
tell you, in the last few years (maybe since 2004?) the market has
seemingly tanked, I mean bad. Is there any market for these anymore?
Its definately a buyers market...I just picked up a beautiful Seeburg
BL , restored including ALL chrome, for 850.00! *5 years ago this
would've fetched 2500.00 easily. It makes me wonder if these are even
worth restoring anymore.

If what you say is indicative of the market - then they probably arent
worth restoring.
The only restorations you will end up finding are someone who just HAS
to have a particular model
for some reason and is willing to pay for a restoration - if they cant
find one already restored as you did.

This BL has had at least 2k of work into it.

How are things with the Wurlitzers of the same era? I'm mostly a
Seeburg guy, but again, I'll grab anything for the right price.
Jay

I think several factors have killed it.

##### To a large % of the general public, a huge, expensive device
like a juke box
that can only hold 100 x 45rpm songs is impractical and functionally
useless
in the age of MP3 players, virtually unlimited music libraries on home
PC's
and thanks to the ease of copying and downloading - a basically free
supply of music to boot.

Even in the 1990's and early 2000's, these technologies were not
widespread, where in recent years they
are the norm. I don't even know if there is even that much public
interest in CD's any more - that must be a declining market - except
for people burning discs of their own favourites to play in the car or
somewhere where there is an existing CD player. There seem to be less
and
less of them in the stores.

If you take a look at this Ipod sales chart (Wikipedia), you can see
that the big surge in sales began in Q1 2005 - pretty close to your
2004 date for the tanking of juke box prices.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ip...er_quarter.svg

All this is compared to a 45rpm record which is large, expensive, has
only 2 songs (1 if the B side is rubbish)
& a limited release of modern song titles available on this format.
This is before we talk about sound quality, changing needles etc.

To younger people, a record jukebox is of no interest whatsoever and a
CD one probably limited interest.
A home PC (or IPOD) that they already own
connected to a reasonable stereo system will do much the same job.

#### Another problem is service, there are bugger all people now who
can fix these things (or have the motivation to do anything remotely
technical).
Its an expensive process if you need any parts - and can find them.
Labour costs aren't going to be cheap either.
PC's, Ipods and stereo's are cheap enough and common enough to just
dump and replace. The latest model will invariably have more
features, and the "cool" factor

#### I worked with a guy during the 1990s who restored and sold a lot
of 1950-60's AMI machines. The restorations were first class, with a
price tag to suit. Most of the clients who paid the big money for
these were in the age group where they would have played these
machines as teens in the cafe, or hotel bar as they got older. They
probably wanted to relive the good old days / have something unique
from their youth, with the appropriate records. Most had good careers,
could afford $10,000+,
I believe that the AMI continental shown in the 1990 movie GHOST
caused a big demand for this model, that spilled over into 1950's
models also. This continued through the 1990s. There were probably 100
sold all up through this time, of all various models.

I think now, that group of people have 'gotten over it" are well into
their 60's are more interested in finding a good retirement/nursing
home than worrying about an overpriced toy like a vintage juke box.
After the financial crash a couple of years back, those who had money
in superannuation plans / bodgy investments that collapsed /
overpriced real estate probably had to flog these machines to pay the
bills, & the rest are scared to spend on anything they don't need

In the 1990's, anyone younger than that generation would typically buy
things of low value (at the time) like - MM 1-4, These would be
electrically/mechanically overhauled to ensure reliability, cabinets
painted if needed & generally tidied up, but no expensive or major
restoration work was done, or chroming done due to the low price they
sold for. This section of the market were not willing to pay more
than say $1000-1500, and usually would look for the cheapest thing you
had.
People in this age group haven't gone on to buy anything more
expensive.

I think it has been a couple of years since I have had anyone even
enquiring about any kind of juke box for non-commercial use or
overnight party hire.

By the early 2000's or so, the prices had dropped, demand had dropped,
parts and stuff were harder to find and much more expensive, and we
slowly got out of the "selling used juke boxes to public" permanently.
We dumped what was left on Ebay (mostly solid state AMI record jukes)
& got rid of it for what we could get for it (which was a reasonable
but not high price). This point probably coincided close to the 2004
date that you mentioned earlier now that I think of it.


####Finally now, we have had this financial crisis and ongoing
problems. Unemployment and other things are adding to nervousness by
the public.
The Juke box sector of the market is an ultra luxury sector,
expensive, bulky and probably the first thing to suffer from this.




discussions on these points, or additional points are more than
welcome.

I think you just about covered the whole gamut of reasons for the juke market being in the crapper. Even bar and restaurant locations are getting to the point that they are more likely to have a satellite or cable feed rather than a juke. And this is the market for which the jukebox was made. I understand their reasoning, though. They make more money from food and spirit sales than from the entertainment.

However, there may be hope. I'm not sure if it is because he grew up around the equipment or he just likes old stuff, but my 12 yr. old son is a NUT about 45 & 78 rpm jukes. It is interesting to hear him explain the big, vinyl "kinda like a CD" thing to his buddies. He also likes old phonographs, old telephones and old cars, so he may just be an antique junkie. Maybe there are more out there like him than we know.

Then, again, this may be the "buggy whip" of the digital revolution.

Respectfully,

David

Hmmm, thanks for the input, albeit depressing as it is. I have to
agree on most if not all the points that were made. You don't know
how many times I've heard the "MP3 argument" regarding the deflated
prices/demand for jukes. I don't know, maybe I'm in the minority but I
just like watching them play~they're a thing of beauty with the lights
and all. Visible mechanisms would rate higher, I'd imagine while
concealed mechs (never my favorite regardless of year/make/model) are
landfill material. Well, I guess I'll stick with my "G" & "BL" for
now. I was actually entertaining picking up a Wurlitzer 780, fully
restored with spotless-I mean spotless original woodwork. I've always
had a thing for that model. Economy be damned, I think I may go for
it...
Jay

On Sep 16, 8:45*am, DRebber
wrote:

I think you just about covered the whole gamut of reasons for the juke
market being in the crapper. *Even bar and restaurant locations are
getting to the point that they are more likely to have a satellite or
cable feed rather than a juke. *And this is the market for which the
jukebox was made. *I understand their reasoning, though. *They make more
money from food and spirit sales than from the entertainment.


Same sort of issues here in Australia.
Music Max is one channel I see more and more playing in bars. Even
though they might not get rid of the juke, it has to cut into the
earnings.

Typically here jukes are now only found in Bars and licensed clubs.
They used to be in cafe's and amusement arcades too but that stopped
in the 1990's when
that type of location stopped earning and the machines taken out. (not
that there are that many amusement arcades left).
I can't recall seeing one in a restaurant, except occasionally as a
"second" older juke in the dining area (lounge) of a bar.

As well as the things you mentioned, we are also being seriously being
screwed to the wall on performing rights fees on location
There are now 2 performing rights groups, PPCA and APRA. (Note -
other businesses such as gyms and restaurants have it worse)
For an Audio only juke the fees are pushing $400 PA per machine and
there are extra fees for every external speaker.
For a Video Juke fees would come close to $1000 in fees per year, then
there are fees for external TV's, and the larger the screen size, the
larger the fee. If you have both audio and video in the one machine
you pay both fees.

Several locations are moving coming closer and closer to not earning
enough to cover these fees, which in some cases are more than the juke
is probably worth

The other growing problem in some areas is locations having your pool
tables left open for everyone to play for free - just to get people
into the bar. (this then spreads through the area to other locations
who have to do this to compete). Hasn't hurt me enormously, but others
it has, and I can read the proverbial writing on the wall.
You will probably eventually see a lot just drop out of the industry,
discouraged, then when there is hardly anyone left to supply, and
people want the gear they will have to be more reasonable to those
left behind.


However, there may be hope. *I'm not sure if it is because he grew up
around the equipment or he just likes old stuff, but my 12 yr. old son
is a NUT about 45 & 78 rpm jukes. *It is interesting to hear him explain
the big, vinyl "kinda like a CD" thing to his buddies. *He also likes
old phonographs, old telephones and old cars, so he may just be an
antique junkie. *Maybe there are more out there like him than we know.


There are always some. I was like that as a child too .
Would have had my first juke around 13 or so and never stopped.

I suppose if he grew up around the gear, always saw his dad working on
it,
loves his dad a lot and respects him, the interest in the gear &
mucking round with it
will probably pass on to him.

Then, again, this may be the "buggy whip" of the digital revolution.


A lot of things have fallen into that category.

One shining example is the music business itself.
Not that it will be a great loss to the world to see these greedy
******* record labels fold.


Respectfully,

David

--
DRebber

Lots of well-thought out responses.......I think jukes are still
collectible, maybe just not inflated as they got in the mid-late '90s.
Ironically, they've never been more affordable for guys just entering
the hobby. I just hope the aftermarket still has enough support to
keep them going. I can't see how places like Victory Glass still stay
above water.
Jay

Originally Posted by Septo[_2_]

Lots of well-thought out responses.......I think jukes are still
collectible, maybe just not inflated as they got in the mid-late '90s.
Ironically, they've never been more affordable for guys just entering
the hobby. I just hope the aftermarket still has enough support to
keep them going. I can't see how places like Victory Glass still stay
above water.
Jay

Hello Jay,

The main reason why Victory Glass are still in business is because they provide a good service to both end users and dealers alike.

Also dealers such as Happ have virtually no jukebox stock in the USA and Europe.

Other than Victory Glass there is the Stanmann's site in Germany www.jukebox-world.de for new/reproduction parts and then there is www.jukeboxparts.com and www.jukeboxparts.co.uk for used jukebox parts and the odd specialist seller like myself that provide parts for just one manufacturer.

I agree that jukeboxes are not selling for the same amount that they were, but lets face it they were highly over priced in the past.

There seems to be plenty of jukeboxes on Ebay both in the USA and in Europe for sale, these sales help provide work for engineers to put them right, we all know the issues with Ebay sales.

Regards
Alan Hood
ami-man
UK

On Sep 24, 10:51*am, Septo wrote:
Lots of well-thought out responses.......I think jukes are still
collectible, maybe just not inflated as they got in the mid-late '90s.
Ironically, they've never been more affordable for guys just entering
the hobby. I just hope the aftermarket still has enough support to
keep them going.


People will always love, collect, restore and enjoy all sorts of weird
and wonderful things
and "groups" (such as this) will always be around in various forms for
discussion, trading
and sharing knowledge on the items in question.

The items might be worthless and useless on the mainstream market, but
if nothing else
this makes them more affordable to the "true believers".

On the other hand, it limits the
amount of expensive and high grade restorations that we have seen
during the boom, and
with it the expertise that was gained in these restorations at that
time.


I can't see how places like Victory Glass still stay
above water.
Jay


I don't know how these companies are structured, or the owners, but
depending on their philosophy,
if they run the business as a sideline, (ie: they are an op, or juke
service company)
or hobby where profit is not essential to their survival, then they
will probably do fine being happy just to do what they love.

Hobby or "philanthropic" enterprises like this could be wiped out just
the same by loss of investments (that were covering their living
expenses) in
shares or other things due to bad economy - which sadly also wipes out
their customers at the same time.


The other possibility is that some repro part suppliers started out
needing specific parts for their own restorations that were not
available, found that it
didn't cost proportionally much more to make (say) 100 as for one,
(specially with things like plastic mouldings) these were a much
needed item
and could be on-sold to cover the initial set up costs.

If they set up purely for the purpose of making a profit out of this
(and there is nothing wrong with this if they did),
then once that profit stops, they will likely try and offload the
business, progressively dump items that aren't selling,
or just close down as soon as the profitability stops and is seen as
not returning.
This is the normal way a business operates.


In either "business model", they will probably progressively cut non
viable parts from stock over time,
If anyone here is concerned about this, and needs repro parts for
restorations projects, I would recommend stocking up now.

Whenever I've shown the teenage kids of friends my jukeboxes and most of these have never seen a seven inch single, they show considerable interest as they are completely amazed by them.

But that's it, they probably go away thinking "I wonder why he doesn't use an ipod?"

Unless they are part of your youth or early adulthood, I don't think there's a "sustainable interest" they're just a novelty, but not to be taken too seriously. So as time goes on, there's a declining market for them.