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Q: Art stamps on the Internet ??



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 12th 05, 06:07 PM
John DeBoo
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Isn't it amusing that they can whine about you showing them (for no
profit to you whatsoever) yet they have no problem with them being on
stamps and franking covers all over the world (a profit for the
perspective postal offices)? It sounds like they took lessons from the
idiots in the US where I live. Life would be so much easier without
lawyers.....
Grandpa John

amesh wrote:
This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes
again.

I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation
(Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright
legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the
Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still
alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in public
on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the artist's
estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect the estate's
(or the still living artist's) legal rights.

Ads
  #22  
Old June 12th 05, 06:13 PM
John DeBoo
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Default

amesh wrote:


They have sent me a plain ultimatum: "Remove the images and files listed,
or pay 4,500 DKK (vat 25% included) per month to Copy-Dan for our
permission, given on behalf of the estate". And they did include a formal
invoice, well specified over some 10-12 pages!

That leaves me no choice other than removing the files, does it?

Mette


You *might* consider removing them, then pursueing it in court. That
way if you do lose, there is no big financial hit to yourself.
Grandpa John
  #23  
Old June 12th 05, 06:50 PM
loepp
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Mette, Douglas, et al,
I realize that the old adage, a good decision makes for bad law, may come
into play here. (If you open a crack in the door for good intentioned
people, you let through the door all the bad.) But I am a logical person
and even as an artist I feel that if you don't want to be in public,
don't go outside. If you don't want to be part of the collective
conscience, shut up and stay out of sight. If you want to control an
image, don't put it on 100,000,000 stamps.
I would bet 10 lbs of ctos that Copy-Dan would lose in court. I think
that it would be thrown out before it started as 'silly' or 'trivial'.
Why? because of precedence. The image was allowed to be used in a format
where for over a century these images have been and must be used to
educate, to tell of history, to be collected and resold.
The reason that the art has appeared on millions of stamps is because of
it's historical and cultural significance. It isn't just a waste of time
to police it as copy-dan is, it is mildly dumb, anti-education, and
anti-fair use. It is my sense that who has the last say in who can
reproduce a stamp's image is the issuing entity of the stamp. The
artist's estate or Copy-Dan's control of the 'stamp' image ended when
they allowed it to be on the stamp. I would direct Copy-Dan to contact
the issuing entities of the stamps and not bother you, Mette. You are
part of something much greater, much older, more significant, and more
powerful that Copy-Dan. You are not manufacturing stamps or art or
posters or t-shirts, you are a historian, a reporter spreading news.
I will gladly appear in your defense (or offense) against such nonsense.

  #24  
Old June 12th 05, 06:56 PM
Douglas Myall
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Posts: n/a
Default


"John DeBoo" wrote in message
...
Isn't it amusing that they can whine about you showing them (for no
profit to you whatsoever) yet they have no problem with them being

on
stamps and franking covers all over the world (a profit for the
perspective postal offices)? It sounds like they took lessons from

the
idiots in the US where I live. Life would be so much easier without
lawyers.....
Grandpa John


Whoa there Grandpa.
Douglas
(Retired intellectual property lawyer)

  #25  
Old June 12th 05, 07:03 PM
amesh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group and
privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there, both
among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now hide away
for a while and think the situation over before taking any actkon. I have
some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal advice. A rather
turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous letter on Saturday
morning!

For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The
whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any
context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or
earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be "out
of the market" because of this! ;-)

Thanks again to all of you, and
Best regards
Mette



"amesh" skrev i en meddelelse
k...
This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes
again.

I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation
(Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright
legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the
Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still
alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in
public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the
artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect
the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights.

Example 1.
Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from
being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only
be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless
the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the
copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the
permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on
stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written
permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the
permission.

Example 2.
Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and
stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere in
the public before 2069.

Esample 3:
A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art
works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever
nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public
until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that he/she
is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work on
stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even when
issued legally on a stamp !!!

It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be
legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan
does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever
nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps
and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum
exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at
least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have
passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the
exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or
pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan.
I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in
London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in
collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped by
Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the
exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are other
similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which have
nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith.

Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the
world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through
their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright
legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations
in Europe and the Mediterranean Area.

How are things working in *your* country?
--
Best regards
Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette)
------
Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV





  #26  
Old June 12th 05, 07:06 PM
Douglas Myall
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"amesh" wrote in message
k...
"Douglas Myall" skrev i en meddelelse
...

- snip -

Do they, specifically, claim to act for Arnold Machin's estate?


Yes.

I will check this with Francis, Arnold Machin's son.

Might I
expect to receive an invoice from them for my reproductions of

Machin
stamps on my Handbook CD although I already have written permission
for this from Royal Mail?


No, with a written permission from the copyright owner you are on the
safe
side. But you would never receive an invoice from Copy-Dan. They
would
notify their British sister organisation to take action for what
happens in
England.

That would seem to indicate that Copy-Dan concede that the copyright
in reproductions of Machin's sculpture on stamps and thus in
reproductions of those stamps is vested in Royal Mail and not in
Machin's estate. If I should ever receive a claim for royalties on the
coloured images of Machin stamps on my CD, whether from Copy-Dan or
any English equivalent claiming to act on behalf of Machin's estate,
it would be defended vigorously and publicly.

Douglas

  #27  
Old June 12th 05, 07:25 PM
Victor Manta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"amesh" wrote in message
k...
This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here goes
again.

I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation
(Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright
legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on the
Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were still
alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown in
public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from the
artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to protect
the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights.

snip

It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be
legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan
does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever
nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps
and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum
exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at
least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have
passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either the
exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate, or
pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan.
snip

Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the
world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country (through
their network) offending the interpretation of the current copyright
legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all affiliated nations
in Europe and the Mediterranean Area.

How are things working in *your* country?


I don't know how the things are in my country, and I surely won't ask.

An idea could be that you ask for support the Danish Philatelic Association
and the FIP (who awarded you in the recent past for your websites).

Aren't they supposed to help the development of philately, on the Web and
elsewhere? This is exactly what you have done; I wonder how could you do it
without presenting the material (stamps) about that you were writing about?

--
Victor Manta



  #29  
Old June 12th 05, 09:58 PM
A.E. Gelat
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mette, why are you tackling this alone? There are hundreds, maybe
thousands, of people like you with that problem. Collective action is
required. Have you consulted a lawyer friend about what he thinks? It will
cost you nothing.

Tony

"amesh" wrote in message
k...
Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group and
privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there, both
among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now hide
away for a while and think the situation over before taking any actkon. I
have some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal advice. A
rather turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous letter on
Saturday morning!

For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The
whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any
context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or
earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be
"out of the market" because of this! ;-)

Thanks again to all of you, and
Best regards
Mette



"amesh" skrev i en meddelelse
k...
This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here
goes again.

I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation
(Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright
legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on
the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were
still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown
in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained from
the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to
protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights.

Example 1.
Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from
being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only
be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless
the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the
copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the
permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on
stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written
permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the
permission.

Example 2.
Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and
stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere
in the public before 2069.

Esample 3:
A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art
works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever
nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public
until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that he/she
is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work on
stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even
when issued legally on a stamp !!!

It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be
legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan
does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever
nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps
and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum
exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for at
least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have
passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either
the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his estate,
or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan.
I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in
London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in
collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped
by Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the
exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are
other similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which
have nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith.

Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout the
world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country
(through their network) offending the interpretation of the current
copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all
affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area.

How are things working in *your* country?
--
Best regards
Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette)
------
Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV









----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
  #30  
Old June 12th 05, 10:24 PM
amesh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"A.E. Gelat" skrev i en meddelelse
...
Mette, why are you tackling this alone? There are hundreds, maybe
thousands, of people like you with that problem. Collective action is
required. Have you consulted a lawyer friend about what he thinks? It
will cost you nothing.


Tony, I received the letter with the ultimatum from Copy-Dan only yesterday,
Saturday, so there has been no time to consult anybody so far. I need no
lawyer friends, but a super professonal barrister, one who is specialized in
copyright legislation and intellectual properties, and who has absolutely no
connection with me in daily life, in order to stay totally objective. This
is not a case about my person, but a case about principal philatelic
interests. I have made up my own thoughts and arguments, and am ready for a
meeting during this coming week. We shall see what happens.

Thanks for your support :-)
Mette





Tony

"amesh" wrote in message
k...
Thanks to all of you for your immense support, both here on this group
and privately. I never realized that I had so many friends out there,
both among the regulars on RCSD and among the lurkers :-) I shall now
hide away for a while and think the situation over before taking any
actkon. I have some ideas, but need to air them in connection with legal
advice. A rather turbulent weekend is over, starting with that infamous
letter on Saturday morning!

For the moment the files in question are removed, and life goes on. The
whole thing is not sooo disastrous, as I can still show any artist in any
context up to 1935, provided that the artist involved was dead in 1935 or
earlier; from next year until 1936, and so on. I will for sure not be
"out of the market" because of this! ;-)

Thanks again to all of you, and
Best regards
Mette



"amesh" skrev i en meddelelse
k...
This is an ooold question, raised by me about 2-3 years ago, but here
goes again.

I have recently been contacted by the Danish Copyright Organisation
(Copy-Dan), who has notified me that according to European copyright
legislation it is not allowed to show stamps or philatelic material on
the Internet, insofar such stamps depict artworks by artists who were
still alive within the latest 70 years. Such material may only be shown
in public on condition that an explicit permission has been obtained
from the artist's estate, or if a substantial due is paid to Copy-Dan to
protect the estate's (or the still living artist's) legal rights.

Example 1.
Pablo Picasso died in 1973. His art works as a whole are protected from
being shown in public until 70 years after his death, i.e. they can only
be shown on the Internet or other public exhibitions in 2043 (!), unless
the exhibitor can provide a written permission from the estate (or the
copyright owner) or pays a *very* substantial due to Copy-Dan for the
permission (for a limited period of 1 month). Any art work -- whether on
stamps or not -- may not be reproduced without the explicit written
permission of the estate, or payment of dues to Copy-Dan for the
permission.

Example 2.
Arnold Machin died in 1999. The case is the same as for Picasso, and
stamps designed by Machin may not be shown on the Internet or elsewhere
in the public before 2069.

Esample 3:
A living post war artist, who has had the luck of having one of his art
works published on a stamp by a postal administration (of whichever
nationality), can not have his/her art work on the stamp shown in public
until 70 years after his death (whenever that may be). Given that
he/she is still alive and may easily live for another 30 years, his work
on stamps is not admissible to the public for the nest 100 years -- even
when issued legally on a stamp !!!

It is unimportant to Copy-Dan that stamps and philatelic material may be
legally issued by a national post office for postal purposes. Copy-Dan
does not consider the issuing postal administration (of whichever
nationality) the legal copyright owner with regard to showing art stamps
and related philatelic material on the Internet or special museum
exhibits, as long as the artist is still alive or hasn't been dead for
at least 70 years. The rigid interpretation is that the artist must have
passed away 70 years prior to the issues in question -- if not, either
the exhibitor produces a written permission from the artist / his
estate, or pays his dues as settled by Copy-Dan.
I know of a recent case in Great Britain, where the National Gallery in
London had planned an exhibit of the Art Nouveau artist Alfons Mucha in
collaboration with the Czech National Gallery. The exhibit was stopped
by Mucha's estate, claiming that Mucha died "only" in 1939, and that the
exhibit could therefore not be shown legally before 2009. There are
other similar cases in Europe, based on this rigid interpretation, which
have nearly ruined the exhibitors who have worked in good faith.

Copy-Dan has sent me a looong list of sister-organisations throughout
the world, and notified me that they will chase anyone in any country
(through their network) offending the interpretation of the current
copyright legislation, which is applicable within the EU and all
affiliated nations in Europe and the Mediterranean Area.

How are things working in *your* country?
--
Best regards
Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette)
------
Outgoing messages.checked with Norton AV









----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
=----



 




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