FA: Electrotype of 1793 Liberry Cap cent on eBay

Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums often
ordered them for displays in place of the originals which were locked
away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor intensive and it
would generally take several hours to fabricate. The hardened clay
molds used to make the copper shell were destroyed in the process, and
a real coin, usually of very high qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics, this
is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...mZ260274017152

Thanks.

Ira

"Ira" wrote in message
...
Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums often
ordered them for displays in place of the originals which were locked
away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor intensive and it
would generally take several hours to fabricate. The hardened clay
molds used to make the copper shell were destroyed in the process, and
a real coin, usually of very high qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics, this
is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...mZ260274017152


What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of such a
rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic? Are these ever
faked?

On Aug 17, 9:39*am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
Are these ever faked?

A fake fake?
Just a whisper away from being genuine!

On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...



Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums often
ordered them for displays in place of the originals which were locked
away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor intensive and it
would generally take several hours to fabricate. The hardened clay
molds used to make the copper shell were destroyed in the process, and
a real coin, usually of very high qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics, this
is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of such a
rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic? Are these ever
faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

At an EAC auction a few years back, some electros of early cents and
half cents sold for many thousands of dollars each, but someone had
laborously engraved edge devices to the coins, whereas most electros
have a plain edge with the seam clearly visible under magnification
(as does the one I have at auction.) Many electros have numerous small
impressions as the piece was "tested" over the years to see if it was
solid or had a soft core. The real coin would be solid, of course, not
a thin shell over a soft lead or white metal core.

Ira

Ira

Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...



Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of
such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic?
Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? If you could make a quarter mil
a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large for a long time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have, yes?
Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the original
wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

On Aug 17, 10:20 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...

Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of
such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic?
Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? If you could make a quarter mil
a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large for a long time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have, yes?
Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the original
wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

Jim,

Electrotypes were largely done by museums who had the real thing and
the craftsman who made these for the museum used the museum's coin for
the electrotype I would expect. Certainly the original coins were far
less valuable by 150 years ago, but not less scarce. I can't see how
bits of dried clay wouldn't have worked their way into the recesses of
the coin's design and removal might have subjected to coin to surface
damaging procedures if not, at a minimum, to some less than gentle
cleaning. Of course, much of the Smithsonian's collection has been
subjected to harsh cleaning, particularly the proof examples.

Ira

"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...



Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of
such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic?
Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? If you could make a quarter
mil a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large for a long
time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have, yes?
Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the original
wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

First, one would need to obtain an authentic AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent to
compare to the electrotype. And even here, as with Ira's specimen, this
particular maker took liberties (sorry) to "improve" the hair a bit.
Otherwise, could one craft a comparable electrotype using one of the modern
replicas and some aging magic? It almost sounds like each one of these
things is/was unique in some way. If so, there seem to be dangers for
anyone unfamiliar with electrotypes (most of us, I presume) who might want
to add one to his collection with little means of verifying its origin or
authenticity.

Bruce Remick wrote:
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message
...
Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...



Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could
find one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but
these are rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe
that was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer
of such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's
authentic? Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press
it into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make
bogus electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost
effective in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow
an expensive and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? If you could make a
quarter mil a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large
for a long time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would
allow a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have,
yes? Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the
original wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

First, one would need to obtain an authentic AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent
to compare to the electrotype. And even here, as with Ira's
specimen, this particular maker took liberties (sorry) to "improve"
the hair a bit. Otherwise, could one craft a comparable electrotype
using one of the modern replicas and some aging magic? It almost
sounds like each one of these things is/was unique in some way. If
so, there seem to be dangers for anyone unfamiliar with electrotypes
(most of us, I presume) who might want to add one to his collection
with little means of verifying its origin or authenticity.

That's my worry. Even a museum, in its attempt to preserve its original
material via the display of fakes, is still displaying fakes for the purpose
of deception. And, if the museum decides to come clean and erect a sign
stating clearly that they are fakes, then what is the point of its being a
museum? I can look at replicas in lots of places, but the real thing is
often available only in a museum. I once saw what were billed as original
fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Field Museum in Chicago. Had they
been copies, I could have saved myself the travel, the parking, and the time
by buying a book and looking at pictures. Plus, it makes a big difference
with the folks back home, when you tell them you travelled a long way to see
a 93 Cap, King Tut's mummy, or the Keechie Kooner diamond. If you tell them
that they were all replicas, they may just tell you that, "Oh, yeah, there
was a guy came through town last week with those three things on a wagon,
along with some real good stuff in brown bottles."

Do me with the real thing, or don't do me at all, sez I.

James

On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:05:29 -0700 (PDT), Ira wrote:

On Aug 17, 10:20 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...

Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the 1850-1875 era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? Will they
authenticate and slab it? If not, how could the potential buyer of
such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic?
Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? If you could make a quarter mil
a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large for a long time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have, yes?
Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the original
wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

Jim,

Electrotypes were largely done by museums who had the real thing and
the craftsman who made these for the museum used the museum's coin for
the electrotype I would expect. Certainly the original coins were far
less valuable by 150 years ago, but not less scarce. I can't see how
bits of dried clay wouldn't have worked their way into the recesses of
the coin's design and removal might have subjected to coin to surface
damaging procedures if not, at a minimum, to some less than gentle
cleaning. Of course, much of the Smithsonian's collection has been
subjected to harsh cleaning, particularly the proof examples.


Can an electro be made from an electro or do they have to use the
original coin?

On Aug 17, 12:32*pm, Jon Purkey wrote:
On Sun, 17 Aug 2008 08:05:29 -0700 (PDT), Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 10:20 am, "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com
wrote:
Ira wrote:
On Aug 17, 9:39 am, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
"Ira" wrote in message

...

Over the years, I've sold several electrotypesof 1793 Chain cents,
Wreath cents, and 1793 Half cents. Twenrtty years ago you could find
one or two electrotypes at medium to large coin shows, but these are
rarely encountered now as they are highly collectible.

Most were made in the1850-1875era, and not to deceive. Museums
often ordered them for displays in place of the originals which
were locked away for safekeeping. Making an electrotype is labor
intensive and it would generally take several hours to fabricate.
The hardened clay molds used to make the copper shell were
destroyed in the process, and a real coin, usually of very high
qulaity, was used to make the mold.

In over 45 years of my immersion in the field of US numismatics,
this is the first and only 1793 Liberty Cap Cent electro I've ever
encountered.

I sold a Chain cent electro with considerable areas of the copper
shell worn away for $400 about 20 or 25 years ago and I believe that
was the last electro I had for sale until this one.

See it at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/1793-Liberty-Cap...tails-Scarce-N...

What's PCGS's policy regarding electrotypes like this? *Will they
authenticate and slab it? * If not, how could the potential buyer of
such a rarely-encountered item ensure himself that it's authentic?
Are these ever faked?

Bruce,

Can't be slabbed as its not a mint product. I have never seen a fake
of an electro. To take a $100,000 plus coin, allow someone to press it
into soft clay and use the original coin over and over to make bogus
electros would not be very likely and certainly not be cost effective
in this day and age. Besides, who would be able to borrow an expensive
and rare coin and allow it to be used in this fashion?

Why would it have to be done over and over? *If you could make a quarter mil
a pop, a guy could just make one or two and live large for a long time!

Reid might be able to shed some light on this. In the case of the
1793 Liberty Cap electro, an AU 1793 Liberty Cap Cent would be worth
well over $250,000 today. I doubt the owner of such a coin would allow
a counterfeiter to abuse his coin in such a way.

And yet someone did just that in order to make the example you have, yes?
Of course, that was before it got up to a quarter mil, but the original
wasn't any less rare whenever it happened.

James

Jim,

Electrotypes were largely done by museums who had the real thing and
the craftsman who made these for the museum used the museum's coin for
the electrotype I would expect. Certainly the original coins were far
less valuable by 150 years ago, but not less scarce. I can't see how
bits of dried clay wouldn't have worked their way into the recesses of
the coin's design and removal might have subjected to coin to surface
damaging procedures if not, at a minimum, to some less than gentle
cleaning. Of course, much of the Smithsonian's collection has been
subjected to harsh cleaning, particularly the proof examples.

Can an electro be made from an electro or do they have to use the
original coin?

Made from an original. The hardened clay would stick to the surface of
the electro and would most likely peel it away from it's lead core
during separation. Electros are quite delicate and vulnerable to
damage.

Ira

I