escudos, francs, reales gold and silver content.

OK, I thought when Napolean conquered Europe the franc was set in gold and silver content and the system
was the same all over Europe.

I understand that there is some relationship between
the 8 escudo and and the 8 Reale. The 8 reale
has similar silver content to the US dollar.

Can someone please fill in the holes here?

"Tom" wrote in message
...
OK, I thought when Napolean conquered Europe the franc was set in gold and
silver content and the system
was the same all over Europe.

I understand that there is some relationship between
the 8 escudo and and the 8 Reale. The 8 reale
has similar silver content to the US dollar.

Can someone please fill in the holes here?

Tom, I'm still having trouble figuring out just exactly what you're asking.
But here is a $2 answer:

The Spanish 8 reales (piece of eight) was (is) also called the Spanish
milled dollar, which served as a dollar coin of 100 cents in the U.S.
colonial times. It competed with the British crown, French écu, German
thaler, etc. These all varied in their silver content, as well as their
exchange rates. At one point King George III decreed that his portrait be
stamped onto the Spanish 8 reales to be the equivalent of a crown. Very
soon there arose a jingle, "To make a dollar for five shillings pass, stamp
the head of a fool on the neck of an ass." Anyone exchanging money in those
days (and many people did) always tried to make the exchange come out in his
or her favor.

The escudo was a Spanish denomination equal in value to 16 reales (more or
less).

Contrary to your belief about Nappy I, no uniform monetary system existed,
ever, "all over Europe." There was an attempt to regularize currencies
under the Latin Monetary Union, but it was not universal by any means. The
Spanish peseta, French franc, British shilling, Italian lira, Danish krone,
and several others all resemble (more or less) a U.S. 20c piece in size and
heft, but that's about as far as it went. They generally did not trade at
par with one another.

If you want a more detailed and accurate answer, I suggest you hie yourself
to a library to check out a good monetary history. You will find much
treasure there, but little that you could call absolute truth. When you get
to the point where you think you really understand it all, come back and
enlighten us. I'd be interested in brushing up my somewhat embryonic
knowledge of economics.

Mr. Jaggers

The reales and escudos system is much older than the 1793 franc. The
reales and escudos system was based on the number eight, while the
franc was the first decimal coinage in the world.

I believe that two Eight Reales coins made one Escudo (i.e., 16 reales
equaled 1 escudo). Thus it took sixteen silver Eight Reales coins to
equal one gold Eight Escudos.

For 19th Century Mexico, an 8 reales coin has .7859 oz pure silver. An
8 escudos has 0.7616 oz pure gold. Sixteen times 0.7859 equals 12.5744
oz of pure silver. If 12.5744 oz pure silver equals 0.7616 oz of pure
gold, then in Nineteenth century Mexico, it took 16.5 ounces of silver
to get one ounce of gold.

Generally, at such a ratio, the silver was overvalued and the gold was
undervalued, so gold coins were not much produced nor much circulated
in Mexico in the Nineteenth century.

The fineness system in Mexico is even harder to explain! I'm running
the dineros and gramos through my head and can't get it straight enough
to explain without looking it up!

The metric system was designed to eliminate such antiquated measurement
systems.

Nonetheless, the Latin Monetary System was implemented (where it was
implemented) during the reign of Napoleon III, and just after the end
of his reign; not during the reign of his much earlier Uncle. The
Latin Monetary System was part of the reason that forty franc gold
coins were discontinued in favor of 20, 50 and 100 franc coins; forty
does not fit neatly into a system of tens.

oly

"oly" wrote in message
oups.com...
The reales and escudos system is much older than the 1793 franc. The
reales and escudos system was based on the number eight, while the
franc was the first decimal coinage in the world.

I believe that two Eight Reales coins made one Escudo (i.e., 16 reales
equaled 1 escudo). Thus it took sixteen silver Eight Reales coins to
equal one gold Eight Escudos.

For 19th Century Mexico, an 8 reales coin has .7859 oz pure silver. An
8 escudos has 0.7616 oz pure gold. Sixteen times 0.7859 equals 12.5744
oz of pure silver. If 12.5744 oz pure silver equals 0.7616 oz of pure
gold, then in Nineteenth century Mexico, it took 16.5 ounces of silver
to get one ounce of gold.

Generally, at such a ratio, the silver was overvalued and the gold was
undervalued, so gold coins were not much produced nor much circulated
in Mexico in the Nineteenth century.

The fineness system in Mexico is even harder to explain! I'm running
the dineros and gramos through my head and can't get it straight enough
to explain without looking it up!

The metric system was designed to eliminate such antiquated measurement
systems.

Nonetheless, the Latin Monetary System was implemented (where it was
implemented) during the reign of Napoleon III, and just after the end
of his reign; not during the reign of his much earlier Uncle. The
Latin Monetary System was part of the reason that forty franc gold
coins were discontinued in favor of 20, 50 and 100 franc coins; forty
does not fit neatly into a system of tens.

oly


Yep, you're correct on all counts, as far as I understand them. I did not
mean to imply that Nap I set up the LMU. I know quite well that it came
later. It was a good idea in theory. But no one cares about science when
they can make a quick buck. 8)

Mr. Jaggers
'could you please give me two dimes for this nickel?'

Tom wrote:
OK, I thought when Napolean conquered Europe the franc was set in gold and silver content and the system
was the same all over Europe.

1. Napoleon never conquered Europe, although he managed to subdue bits
of it. Russia was a notable failure of his, as was Prussia and of course
the UK. The latter two bloodying his nose and burying his european
ambitions at the battle of Waterloo.

2. The following has been extracted from `wikipedia' in its entirety:

"The French franc was a coin first minted in 1360 (its name comes from
the inscription reading Johannes Dei Gratia Francorum Rex "Jean by the
grace of God King of the French") and its value was set as one "livre
tournois". Other francs were minted under Charles V of France, Henri III
of France and Henri IV of France.

Louis XIII of France stopped minting the franc in 1641 (eventually
replacing it with the Louis), but use of the name "franc" continued in
accounting as a synonym for livre tournois.

As a consequence of the French Revolution, the non-decimal accounting
system of the livre tournois was abolished and a decimal system was
adopted in 1795. A newly decimal-based franc was introduced at a rate of
1 franc = 1 livre 3 deniers."

For further information see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livre

As you can see, from your original post there was no way of determining
which `franc' you meant.

3. You should find the following site contains the information you seek
as far as early gold escudos are concerned.

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColC...old.intro.html

hope that helps.

Ian





I understand that there is some relationship between
the 8 escudo and and the 8 Reale. The 8 reale
has similar silver content to the US dollar.

Can someone please fill in the holes here?

Not trying to correct you Mr. J.; there are probably some people out
there who aren't aware that there was more than one Napoleon.

oly

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 15:15:16 -0600, "Tom" wrote:

OK, I thought when Napolean conquered Europe the franc was set in gold and silver content and the system
was the same all over Europe.

I understand that there is some relationship between
the 8 escudo and and the 8 Reale. The 8 reale
has similar silver content to the US dollar.

Just to tack on to what the others have been saying...

The USA did in fact base its dollar on the Mexican peso, which at the
time was composed of 8 reales (there should be an -s on the end).
Mexican (and other foreign) coins were legal tender up to 1857.

It might be of interest to you to note that the old 8-based system is
still with us in folklore, and until recently in commerce. I'm sure
you've heard quarters refered to as "two bits". That's because there
were 8 bits, or Mexican reales, to the dollar. The old custom of
pricing stocks in eighths of a dollar also hearkens back to the eight
bit dollar.

Can someone please fill in the holes here?

Padraic.

la cieurgeourea provoer mal trasfu
ast meiyoer ke 'l andrext ben trasfu.

Tom wrote:
OK, I thought when Napolean conquered Europe the franc was set in gold and silver content and the system
was the same all over Europe.

LATIN MONETARY UNION
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Latin Monetary Union (1865-1927) was a 19th century attempt to
unify several European currencies into a single currency ... In 1865;
France, Belgium, Italy, and Switzerland joined the union and agreed to
change their national currencies to a standard of 4.5 grams of silver
or 0.290322 grams of gold (a ratio of 15.5 to 1) and make them freely
interchangeable. They were joined later by Spain and Greece in 1868,
and Romania, Austria, Bulgaria, Venezuela, Serbia, Montenegro, San
Marino and the Papal States in 1889. In 1904 the Danish West Indies
were also placed on this standard, but did not join the LMU itself.
------------------

I believe that including "de facto" adherents, about 25 -- and maybe
40! -- nations minted on the LMU standard, counting, for instance, the
USA which only issued patterns in gold and the brief 20-cent coin.

Contrary to opinions posted earlier, convertability was operative,
since, obviously, these coins were minted to the same standards, and
therefore a French franc was worth the same as a Swiss franc or an
Italian lira and so on.

Operationally, there was stress on the system from weak currencies,
such as the lira, which was struck in silver and much less available as
a gold 20-lira coin. Since the silver and gold coins were nominally
interchangible, Italian silver flowed in to Switzerland and Swiss gold
coins flowed out to Italy.

Mike M.

"oly" wrote in message oups.com...
The reales and escudos system is much older than the 1793 franc. The
reales and escudos system was based on the number eight, while the
franc was the first decimal coinage in the world.

I believe that two Eight Reales coins made one Escudo (i.e., 16 reales
equaled 1 escudo). Thus it took sixteen silver Eight Reales coins to
equal one gold Eight Escudos.

For 19th Century Mexico, an 8 reales coin has .7859 oz pure silver. An
8 escudos has 0.7616 oz pure gold. Sixteen times 0.7859 equals 12.5744
oz of pure silver. If 12.5744 oz pure silver equals 0.7616 oz of pure
gold, then in Nineteenth century Mexico, it took 16.5 ounces of silver
to get one ounce of gold.

Generally, at such a ratio, the silver was overvalued and the gold was
undervalued, so gold coins were not much produced nor much circulated
in Mexico in the Nineteenth century.

The fineness system in Mexico is even harder to explain! I'm running
the dineros and gramos through my head and can't get it straight enough
to explain without looking it up!

The metric system was designed to eliminate such antiquated measurement
systems.

Nonetheless, the Latin Monetary System was implemented (where it was
implemented) during the reign of Napoleon III, and just after the end
of his reign; not during the reign of his much earlier Uncle. The
Latin Monetary System was part of the reason that forty franc gold
coins were discontinued in favor of 20, 50 and 100 franc coins; forty
does not fit neatly into a system of tens.

oly


From what I can tell from reading the history, the
system of francs and the decimal system and the
amount of silver and gold in the francs dates from
1795.