Phony Coins

gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...

They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.

Christian

On Mon, 9 Jul 2007 22:35:12 +0200, lid (Christian
Feldhaus) wrote:

gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...

They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.

I think the whole point of these vanity coins is to a) earn money for
National Collectors Mint and b) to earn money for the local government
in Palau by snookering unwary coin collectors and would-be
speculators. Placing a face value (such as "one dollar") on them is a
marketing ploy, making the things look something like legitimate
money. (But keep in mind that play money has a dollar denomination on
it too!) The fact that you have to pay $20 for a $1 coin that is worth
about a quarter should also clue one in to the likelihood of it ever
being spent.

I am confused by some contradictory information on the producer's
website, though. The written material suggests that it is "legal
tender" (obviously, it isn't, since it isn't US currency); while the
spoken ad copy clearly (well, it's kind of glossed over) states that
the coin is "noncirculating legal tender".

Padraic


Christian

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

? "Christian Feldhaus" ?????? ??? ??????
...
gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...


They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.

Me neither...
But it would be strange to not accept their own "coins" even if silver!

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/golanule/my_photos
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html

Christian

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:44:44 +0300, "gogu"
wrote:

? "Christian Feldhaus" ?????? ??? ??????
d...
gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...


They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.

Me neither...
But it would be strange to not accept their own "coins" even if silver!

I don't think thet are really "their own" coins, and I don't think
these territories ever had any intention to accept them as currency!

Padraic


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Padraic Brown" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:44:44 +0300, "gogu"
wrote:

? "Christian Feldhaus" ?????? ??? ??????
d...
gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...


They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they
are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.

Me neither...
But it would be strange to not accept their own "coins" even if silver!

I don't think thet are really "their own" coins, and I don't think
these territories ever had any intention to accept them as currency!

I've often wondered just what percentage of those coins have actually ever
been in their "country of origin". The phrase "vanishingly small" keeps
coming to mind.

? "Padraic Brown" ?????? ??? ??????
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:44:44 +0300, "gogu"
wrote:

? "Christian Feldhaus" ?????? ??? ??????
id...
gogu wrote:

And you can't spend a Palau silver coin of $5 there?!...


They may well be (or have been) legal tender there. Now whether they are
generally accepted as such ... Have not been to Palau yet, so I do not
have any first hand experience g.


Me neither...
But it would be strange to not accept their own "coins" even if silver!

I don't think thet are really "their own" coins, and I don't think
these territories ever had any intention to accept them as currency!

Probably so but since they bear the name of their country and currency on
them,
IMHO they should accept them as currency;-)

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html

Padraic

Mr. Jaggers: The way I figger, a guy can collect whatever he likes,
and I'll keep my trap shut about it. If somebody wants to collect
NCLT or bullion, and it gives him pleasure, who am I to rain on his
parade?
GFH : IMHO, these are not "real" coins. The current series of US
gold coins are not intended for circulation, but to me they are "real"
coins.
gogu: IMHO any coin issued by a sovereign country is real money. Now
if you/we like it or not, that's another thing;-)
GFH : OK. Money is just data bits. Or, to be more precise, the
arrangement of data bits. That is one of the attractions of real
coins -- coins whose metal is the value.

I agree 100% that you can collect whatever you like. I also agree
that denegrating someone else's collectibles is not usually fruitful.
That said, it is helpful and interesting to ask what you collect and
WHY and what you do not collect and WHY NOT. Personally, I take a
very philosophical view of numismatics and by "philosophical" I do
_NOT_ mean "open minded." I am not open minded. You can collect
whatever you want. We have discussed here "what else" we collect --
fountain pens, meteorites, 78 rpm jazz, whatever... That's fine. For
myself, for numismatics, to be collectible, the object must be _money_
i.e., (1) a unit of account (the databits) (2) store of value
(precious metal, for instance), and as a CONSEQUENCE of 1 and 2 (3) a
medium of indirect barter. Most conservative economists put (3)
first. Historically, trade began as ritual exchange, but
intellectually -- just as we begin a geometry proof with the axioms --
the unit of account underlies the other two.

All of this means, that for me myself and I, I collect money that
honors the human spirit of achievement and the rational faculty of
creative humans. My paper money from the Central Mining Company of
Eagle Harbor, Michigan, means more to me than any full frosty mint
state Morgan Dollar. In fact, Morgan Dollars were a scourge on the
economy then and they remain so now. We'd be better off melting them
into silver for solder and stopping that when they get to about $1000
each in circ, i.e., truly and objectively RARE, not just junk silver
coins from a bankrupt political democracy.

Most collectors of money fall for the govern-mentality fallacy that
says that if something is immoral for one person, it becomes moral if
three people do it. I do not grant government money that primacy. To
me, governments are just another kind of human group, like a company
or a club. Government money is no more collectible than any other
kind and it often is LESS REAL AS MONEY -- Zimbabwe Dollars anyone?

I'll take a Conder Token, a Hard Times Token, Coal Mine scrip, or an
expired Eurail pass any day over any of those kitchy Saint Gaudens
$20s everyone gawks at. They are cheap copies of a Greek statue. You
might as well own a Franklin Mint round honoring the statue -- that
would be more honest on several grounds.

So, feel free to collect what YOU want -- and make yourself happy. I
won't stop you. I might even stop to stare and congratulate you on
your collecting spirit. I admire a nice collection of almost anything,
even Lincoln Cents or German 5M commems... or Zimbabwe Dollars, if is
complete and high grade,..

Mike M.

"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
ups.com...
Mr. Jaggers: The way I figger, a guy can collect whatever he likes,
and I'll keep my trap shut about it. If somebody wants to collect
NCLT or bullion, and it gives him pleasure, who am I to rain on his
parade?
GFH : IMHO, these are not "real" coins. The current series of US
gold coins are not intended for circulation, but to me they are "real"
coins.
gogu: IMHO any coin issued by a sovereign country is real money. Now
if you/we like it or not, that's another thing;-)
GFH : OK. Money is just data bits. Or, to be more precise, the
arrangement of data bits. That is one of the attractions of real
coins -- coins whose metal is the value.

I agree 100% that you can collect whatever you like. I also agree
that denegrating someone else's collectibles is not usually fruitful.
That said, it is helpful and interesting to ask what you collect and
WHY and what you do not collect and WHY NOT. Personally, I take a
very philosophical view of numismatics and by "philosophical" I do
_NOT_ mean "open minded." I am not open minded. You can collect
whatever you want. We have discussed here "what else" we collect --
fountain pens, meteorites, 78 rpm jazz, whatever... That's fine. For
myself, for numismatics, to be collectible, the object must be _money_
i.e., (1) a unit of account (the databits) (2) store of value
(precious metal, for instance), and as a CONSEQUENCE of 1 and 2 (3) a
medium of indirect barter. Most conservative economists put (3)
first. Historically, trade began as ritual exchange, but
intellectually -- just as we begin a geometry proof with the axioms --
the unit of account underlies the other two.

All of this means, that for me myself and I, I collect money that
honors the human spirit of achievement and the rational faculty of
creative humans. My paper money from the Central Mining Company of
Eagle Harbor, Michigan, means more to me than any full frosty mint
state Morgan Dollar. In fact, Morgan Dollars were a scourge on the
economy then and they remain so now. We'd be better off melting them
into silver for solder and stopping that when they get to about $1000
each in circ, i.e., truly and objectively RARE, not just junk silver
coins from a bankrupt political democracy.

Most collectors of money fall for the govern-mentality fallacy that
says that if something is immoral for one person, it becomes moral if
three people do it. I do not grant government money that primacy. To
me, governments are just another kind of human group, like a company
or a club. Government money is no more collectible than any other
kind and it often is LESS REAL AS MONEY -- Zimbabwe Dollars anyone?

I'll take a Conder Token, a Hard Times Token, Coal Mine scrip, or an
expired Eurail pass any day over any of those kitchy Saint Gaudens
$20s everyone gawks at. They are cheap copies of a Greek statue. You
might as well own a Franklin Mint round honoring the statue -- that
would be more honest on several grounds.

So, feel free to collect what YOU want -- and make yourself happy. I
won't stop you. I might even stop to stare and congratulate you on
your collecting spirit. I admire a nice collection of almost anything,
even Lincoln Cents or German 5M commems... or Zimbabwe Dollars, if is
complete and high grade,..

Oh-oh, high grade, that leaves me out. Same for complete, I'm still trying
to get a complete set of HTTs. Fortunately, nobody makes an album for them,
so nobody will know except you and I, Mike!

Actually, I'm glad that a lot of collectors go after Morgans and St.
Gaudens, as their passion has two very positive results: one, it keeps
their capital busy and not in pursuit of what I am collecting, and two, it
causes big coin shows to happen, where the stuff I collect might come along
for the ride.

James

? "Mike Marotta" ?????? ??? ??????
ups.com...
Mr. Jaggers: The way I figger, a guy can collect whatever he likes,
and I'll keep my trap shut about it. If somebody wants to collect
NCLT or bullion, and it gives him pleasure, who am I to rain on his
parade?
GFH : IMHO, these are not "real" coins. The current series of US
gold coins are not intended for circulation, but to me they are "real"
coins.
gogu: IMHO any coin issued by a sovereign country is real money. Now
if you/we like it or not, that's another thing;-)
GFH : OK. Money is just data bits. Or, to be more precise, the
arrangement of data bits. That is one of the attractions of real
coins -- coins whose metal is the value.

I agree 100% that you can collect whatever you like. I also agree
that denegrating someone else's collectibles is not usually fruitful.
That said, it is helpful and interesting to ask what you collect and
WHY and what you do not collect and WHY NOT. Personally, I take a
very philosophical view of numismatics and by "philosophical" I do
_NOT_ mean "open minded." I am not open minded. You can collect
whatever you want. We have discussed here "what else" we collect --
fountain pens, meteorites, 78 rpm jazz, whatever... That's fine. For
myself, for numismatics, to be collectible, the object must be _money_
i.e., (1) a unit of account (the databits) (2) store of value
(precious metal, for instance), and as a CONSEQUENCE of 1 and 2 (3) a
medium of indirect barter. Most conservative economists put (3)
first. Historically, trade began as ritual exchange, but
intellectually -- just as we begin a geometry proof with the axioms --
the unit of account underlies the other two.

All of this means, that for me myself and I, I collect money that
honors the human spirit of achievement and the rational faculty of
creative humans. My paper money from the Central Mining Company of
Eagle Harbor, Michigan, means more to me than any full frosty mint
state Morgan Dollar. In fact, Morgan Dollars were a scourge on the
economy then and they remain so now. We'd be better off melting them
into silver for solder and stopping that when they get to about $1000
each in circ, i.e., truly and objectively RARE, not just junk silver
coins from a bankrupt political democracy.

Most collectors of money fall for the govern-mentality fallacy that
says that if something is immoral for one person, it becomes moral if
three people do it. I do not grant government money that primacy. To
me, governments are just another kind of human group, like a company
or a club. Government money is no more collectible than any other
kind and it often is LESS REAL AS MONEY -- Zimbabwe Dollars anyone?

I'll take a Conder Token, a Hard Times Token, Coal Mine scrip, or an
expired Eurail pass any day over any of those kitchy Saint Gaudens
$20s everyone gawks at. They are cheap copies of a Greek statue. You
might as well own a Franklin Mint round honoring the statue -- that
would be more honest on several grounds.

So, feel free to collect what YOU want -- and make yourself happy. I
won't stop you. I might even stop to stare and congratulate you on
your collecting spirit. I admire a nice collection of almost anything,
even Lincoln Cents or German 5M commems... or Zimbabwe Dollars, if is
complete and high grade,..

Mike, I really enjoyed your analysis:-)

--

E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure
in codesto reame debban risolversi tutte con grandi
puttane! F.d.A

Coins, travels and mo
http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb120/golanule/
http://gogu.enosi.org/index.html

Mike M.

I thought I'd break this out, since the subject matter has veered
considerably from that of the original post.

On Fri, 27 Jul 2007 20:26:45 +0300, "gogu"
wrote:

Mike, I really enjoyed your analysis:-)

But Michael Marotta called Saints "kitchy." That's blasphemous. He
also said they're "cheap copies of a Greek statue." That's
treasonable. Finally, he said they're dishonest, though he didn't say
why.

Almost all coins copy other coins in one way or another, blatantly or
subtly. The Saint actually copies only the obverse of Saints that
copies a Greek statue. More accurately, the obverse was inspired by
the Nike of Paionios of Mende, a Greek sculptor of the fifth century
BC. It's not a copy of it. Both Saint-Gaudens and Roosevelt were
aficionados of ancient Greek coins (who isn't?), and the Saint clearly
pays homage to this great tradition. In contrast, the eagle on the
reverse was inspired by the eagle on the obverse of the Flying Eagle
cent of 1856 to 1858, though there are also less direct links here
back to the coins of ancient Greece. The reverse also isn't a slavish
copy. There are lots of other coins, U.S. and otherwise, inspired in
similar ways.

I don't see how Saints are kitchy or, spelling the word correctly,
kitschy, which implies sentimental and pretentious, or how they're
cheap, or dishonest. Yo, Mike. Care to elucidate? All of this is
subjective, of course, but it can be really interesting to hear what's
behind others' views about the desirability of a particular coin type,
you know, what's really behind it. If you're not up to responding,
maybe Anka can for you. g

--

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