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#1
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
I own a pristine copy of a volume titled "The Picatrix", published by
Ourobouros Press in 2001 in a limited edition of 1000 copies (mine is #331). I'm doing an appraisal of the current value of this book, so I searched Bookfinder to see what was listed there. There are several copies listed, ranging in price from a low of $204 to a high of over $500 (the latter from a Seattle brick and mortar store for a copy with a scuff on the cover!) One of the outliers, pricing a copy at $430, was an outfit called "seattle_bookseller". I wrote and asked why the price was so high, and got an amazingly vituperative and abusive response, stating that this "WAS HOW THE RARE BOOK BUSINESS WORKED" and that I "NEED A COURSE IN REMEDIAL ECONOMICS" and so on. I was a little surprised at this, but a little research turned up the even more surprising information that this seller is one "Luis M. Arsupial", the same person who was doing business (kinda) as "texas_bookseller" up until about six months ago, and who previously created a huge stink in this group over some questionable transactions! This kind of pricing seems like nothing more than gouging to me. I could buy two copies of this book for what this yoyo is asking for it. I can only assume that he's doing business on a basis of relying on his customers being ignorant and not doing their research. Based on the listings on Bookfinder, I'd estimate the value of this book at $225 to $250, certainly nowhere close to $430. Is this a usual practice? Do a lot of booksellers price their wares in the hopes that their buyers will be too stupid to know that they're being asked to pay twice what a book is worth? (Apparently this "Luis M. Arsupial"--"marsupial"...?--was once known as "Jason Christopher Hughes", a name which turns up a wide variety of odd and amazing postings on USENET...) |
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#2
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
"Stone Mirror (the Great and Terrible)" wrote in message oups.com... I own a pristine copy of a volume titled "The Picatrix", published by Ourobouros Press in 2001 in a limited edition of 1000 copies (mine is #331). I'm doing an appraisal of the current value of this book, so I searched Bookfinder to see what was listed there. There are several copies listed, ranging in price from a low of $204 to a high of over $500 (the latter from a Seattle brick and mortar store for a copy with a scuff on the cover!) One of the outliers, pricing a copy at $430, was an outfit called "seattle_bookseller". I wrote and asked why the price was so high, and got an amazingly vituperative and abusive response, stating that this "WAS HOW THE RARE BOOK BUSINESS WORKED" and that I "NEED A COURSE IN REMEDIAL ECONOMICS" and so on. I was a little surprised at this, but a little research turned up the even more surprising information that this seller is one "Luis M. Arsupial", the same person who was doing business (kinda) as "texas_bookseller" up until about six months ago, and who previously created a huge stink in this group over some questionable transactions! This kind of pricing seems like nothing more than gouging to me. I could buy two copies of this book for what this yoyo is asking for it. I can only assume that he's doing business on a basis of relying on his customers being ignorant and not doing their research. Based on the listings on Bookfinder, I'd estimate the value of this book at $225 to $250, certainly nowhere close to $430. Is this a usual practice? Do a lot of booksellers price their wares in the hopes that their buyers will be too stupid to know that they're being asked to pay twice what a book is worth? (Apparently this "Luis M. Arsupial"--"marsupial"...?--was once known as "Jason Christopher Hughes", a name which turns up a wide variety of odd and amazing postings on USENET...) I remember some sort of hoo-haa over "Luis M. Arsupial" but forget the details, so my comments are general. First: Good for you for doing your homework! The first rule of internet book buying is "buyer beware". Second: While the seller's response to you was over the top and unprofessional, it's hard to know by how much without knowing how your inquiry was phrased. Did you say: "I collect this author and I'd be happy to know if you've got something special I haven't seen before that would make your book worth more than most of the others I've seen"? Or did you say: "You are a price gouger and a thief who preys on the ignorant and unwary. Why are you charging so much?"? Again, I'm ignoring whatever reputation the seller has already acquired. Just talking in general. One possibility is that the seller doesn't even own the book. That happened to me not too long ago. I sold one to another seller who asked me to drop ship the book. When I looked at his web site, he had copied my description lock, stock, and barrel and upped my price by a third. If I had to guess, I'd guess that that's what's really happening with your seattle_bookseller. He finds books worth a few hundred dollars, prices his copy a bit below the top, and plans on buying one of the lower priced books if he has to fulfill the order. What could be better? Somebody else buys and stocks the book, and it doesn't cost him a cent until he gets the order. Again, just speculation, but that's my first guess. All that said, basically used books are worth exactly what some one will pay for them. The internet has been a great leveler as far as pricing, because most people, even with a simple Google search, can do exactly what you did and get the range of prices available. In the "old days", books moved much differently. Sellers had shops, and priced for their geographic areas and their specialty. A book that was priced at $12 in one shop could bring $50 or $200 when moved to a dealer who had the right clients for it. Sales from dealer to dealer were a much bigger part of the trade. It was understood that part of the value a dealer added to a book was his knowledge of the collecting area and years of cultivating the kind of customers who would want that kind of book. So...your seller may indeed be a sleaze-bag. I would certainly never buy from him based on the unprofessional response he made to you. But if he's got the book and he wants to list it at $400+ when most copies are in the $200-range, so what? Maybe his policy is to never revise a listing, and he's just waiting for the market to catch up with him! You don't have to buy the book, and he doesn't have to justify his price to you, unless he's got a really good story that truly makes the book worth what he's charging. Not that I think it's necessarily right for a dealer to charge any price at all. I've seen some things that would simply embarrass me to be involved with. There was an auction on eBay two weeks ago where a seller paired two common $25 books, hyped the illustrator and sold the pair for over $200. And a copycat did the same thing with the same titles and netted over $100. Again, nobody made any of the customers bid on the auctions, and the books were started at a very reasonable price, but seeing the final values, I just cringed. I would hate to be either of those sellers when their customers found out they could have gotten the same books for a quarter or half the price on amazon. And that, my friend, is why serious collectors often support specific sellers over a period of years, even if it means they pay a small premium in the pricing over what the same titles in the same condition would bring in other venues. They do it because they know they can trust the seller to accurately describe the books, to stand behind their products, and to price fairly, even if not at the cheapest price. Alice -- Book collecting terms illustrated. Occasional books for sale. http://www.mywingsbooks.com/ |
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 10, 8:40 am, "my-wings" wrote:
"Stone Mirror (the Great and Terrible)" wrote in ooglegroups.com... And that, my friend, is why serious collectors often support specific sellers over a period of years, even if it means they pay a small premium in the pricing over what the same titles in the same condition would bring in other venues. They do it because they know they can trust the seller to accurately describe the books, to stand behind their products, and to price fairly, even if not at the cheapest price. Thanks for your comments! Especially when buying rare stuff, having an honest dealer is critical. The feedback for "seattle_bookseller" on Amazon, at http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/seller...=AM0TBPF72AOXR seems to support the notion that this business is best avoided. Negative feedback is 8% in just the last month, and there have been complaints about the condition of books being seriously misrepresented (this was the issue that caused the fracas with this person last time), non-delivery, delivery of less than was purchased (e.g. one volume out of ten, ten out of twelve, etc.) |
#4
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
"Stone Mirror (the Great and Terrible)" wrote in
message oups.com... Based on the listings on Bookfinder, I'd estimate the value of this book at $225 to $250, certainly nowhere close to $430. You may have a mistaken apprehension of the retail market for genuinely rare books. In comparison with other goods (e.g. computers, e.g. mass-produced new books) vendors cannot set prices in order to undercut the competition (because these items are so scarce that price competition seldom works.) By contrast, haggling (bargaining) over price may be as common as in some other markets (e.g. automobiles.) We still do not know why you did not buy a couple of copies at $250 and offer to sell them to this dealer at $350. -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#5
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 10, 10:46 am, "Don Phillipson"
wrote: We still do not know why you did not buy a couple of copies at $250 and offer to sell them to this dealer at $350. For starts, because he's abusive in response to straightforward questions; secondly, because (based on his Amazon rating, and on complaints about his previous incarnation as "texas_bookseller") he appears to be dishonest. |
#6
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 10, 7:18 am, "Stone Mirror (the Great and Terrible)"
wrote: I own a pristine copy of a volume titled "The Picatrix", published by Ourobouros Press in 2001 in a limited edition of 1000 copies (mine is #331). I'm doing an appraisal of the current value of this book, so I searched Bookfinder to see what was listed there. There are several copies listed, ranging in price from a low of $204 to a high of over $500 (the latter from a Seattle brick and mortar store for a copy with a scuff on the cover!) One of the outliers, pricing a copy at $430, was an outfit called "seattle_bookseller". I wrote and asked why the price was so high, and got an amazingly vituperative and abusive response, stating that this "WAS HOW THE RARE BOOK BUSINESS WORKED" and that I "NEED A COURSE IN REMEDIAL ECONOMICS" and so on. Well, he sounds like a grouch. Smart dealers have a civil and positive-sounding reply for any question. He should have told you what a wonderful deal he was offering. Maybe there is some satisfaction in saying "That's my price, like it or lump it," but all that does is ensure that customers don't come back. Some dealers have that small shopkeeper mentality where they think it is more important to put customers in their place with thngs like, "It is my shop and I'll do as I please blah blah blah," while to better business people the trick is to keep people happy and keep them coming back. That does not mean letting people walk on you, but it means explaining things in a positive way when at all possible. There is dealer in my area who got exercised because I simply ask him if a paperback was new or used. His store is basically a used bookstore, so it looked to me like he was pricing "used like-new" p.b.'s at cover price, and I simply asked him if a paperback was new or used. (I am not referring to rare, out-of-print p.b.'s, but just trade- sized p.b.'s that many used book dealers around here price at fifty-percent of cover.) It just so happens thatthis dealer does not like that question, probably because he hears it all the time. He insisted that the book was brand new, not used. Actually, I believe the guy, because there other things about his business which suggests he is a person of some integrity. He is just an oddball type who does order new books and mixes them in with his used books, which most used-book dealers do not do. Even so, I suspect he has driven off a lot of customers by getting hot under the collar regarding a very sensible question. All things considered, he has one of the better used bookstores in the San Diego area, so I still patronize the guy, but you have to walk on eggshells in his shop because he will fly off the handle if you ask the wrong question. [Memo from the upstairs office.] I was a little surprised at this, but a little research turned up the even more surprising information that this seller is one "Luis M. Arsupial", the same person who was doing business (kinda) as "texas_bookseller" up until about six months ago, and who previously created a huge stink in this group over some questionable transactions! This kind of pricing seems like nothing more than gouging to me. I could buy two copies of this book for what this yoyo is asking for it. I can only assume that he's doing business on a basis of relying on his customers being ignorant and not doing their research. Based on the listings on Bookfinder, I'd estimate the value of this book at $225 to $250, certainly nowhere close to $430. Is this a usual practice? Do a lot of booksellers price their wares in the hopes that their buyers will be too stupid to know that they're being asked to pay twice what a book is worth? You can't blame dealers for trying to get what the traffic will bear. In no way is that "price gouging." On the other hand, many listings show that dealers like to use "fantasy pricing." That is, when someone has the only copy of a book of obviously some value for sale on the entire internet, and he prices it at $400, that may be very sensible. On the other hand, if he prices his book at $400 and four other equally reputable dealers are offering what looks like an identical copy at prices between $30 and $50, then the first dealer is not price gouging, he is dreaming. Or, since you assume he is trying to sell his book, you might say he is "pricing stupid." But, I completely agree with the other posters who say that "price gouging" is not a correct term to use regarding the pricing of rare collectibles. [Memo from the upstairs office.} (Apparently this "Luis M. Arsupial"--"marsupial"...?--was once known as "Jason Christopher Hughes", a name which turns up a wide variety of odd and amazing postings on USENET...) |
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 10, 10:46 am, "Don Phillipson"
wrote: "Stone Mirror (the Great and Terrible)" wrote in ooglegroups.com... Based on the listings on Bookfinder, I'd estimate the value of this book at $225 to $250, certainly nowhere close to $430. You may have a mistaken apprehension of the retail market for genuinely rare books. Absolutely true. When you are talking about a rare collectible, the term "price gouging" is inappropriate. On the other hand, good business people develop a sense of what the traffic will bear -- not so good ones price more in accordance with their fantasies regarding what they think they can get. In comparison with other goods (e.g. computers, e.g. mass-produced new books) vendors cannot set prices in order to undercut the competition (because these items are so scarce that price competition seldom works.) By contrast, haggling (bargaining) over price may be as common as in some other markets (e.g. automobiles.) We still do not know why you did not buy a couple of copies at $250 and offer to sell them to this dealer at $350. Why waste time doing that? Assuming he is like many other dealers, he probably paid no more than $20 bucks for that book in the first place. [Memo from the upstairs office.] -- Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) |
#8
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 16, 1:07 pm, wrote:
There is dealer in my area who got exercised because I simply ask him if a paperback was new or used. Geez palmjob, after going on at length in about a million posts about how smart and knowledgable you are, one would think you'd be able to tell the difference between a new and a used paperback! I guess it's true that self-abuse does diminish one's eyesight! |
#9
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 18, 1:54 pm, "RWF" wrote:
On Feb 16, 1:07 pm, wrote: There is dealer in my area who got exercised because I simply ask him if a paperback was new or used. Geez palmjob, after going on at length in about a million posts about how smart and knowledgable you are, one would think you'd be able to tell the difference between a new and a used paperback! I guess it's true that self-abuse does diminish one's eyesight! You are full of beans, as always. It is often absolutely impossible to tell whether a book is new or "used, like new." Yes, sometimes books do have that "never been opened" look and feel. On the other hand, a great many books have been opened, browsed, thumbed-through, etc., right in new bookstores. Or, are you going to invent a rule that states that a book which has sat on a bookstore's shelves for a while cannot be called new? Of course, the custom of trade in the book business does not adhere to any such ridiculous rule, as you well know. When a book has been owned by a careful reader, it is often impossible to say from looking at it whether it is new or "used, like-new." Yes, you can often tell if a book has been opened, but you have no way of determining whether it has been opened by someone glancing through it in a bookstore or has been opened by a careful reader. So, in your pathetic attempte at humor, your are blaming me for not knowing things that no one else could possibly know either. You're really sort of dumb, aren't you? A veritable dim bulb! 'Fess up, now... [Memo from the upstairs office.] |
#10
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Unscrupulous Dealers and Price Gouging in Seattle?
On Feb 20, 4:11 am, wrote:
On Feb 18, 1:54 pm, "RWF" wrote: On Feb 16, 1:07 pm, wrote: There is dealer in my area who got exercised because I simply ask him if a paperback was new or used. Geez palmjob, after going on at length in about a million posts about how smart and knowledgable you are, one would think you'd be able to tell the difference between a new and a used paperback! I guess it's true that self-abuse does diminish one's eyesight! You are full of beans, as always. It is often absolutely impossible to tell whether a book is new or "used, like new." Yes, sometimes books do have that "never been opened" look and feel. On the other hand, a great many books have been opened, browsed, thumbed-through, etc., right in new bookstores. Or, are you going to invent a rule that states that a book which has sat on a bookstore's shelves for a while cannot be called new? Of course, the custom of trade in the book business does not adhere to any such ridiculous rule, as you well know. When a book has been owned by a careful reader, it is often impossible to say from looking at it whether it is new or "used, like-new." Yes, you can often tell if a book has been opened, but you have no way of determining whether it has been opened by someone glancing through it in a bookstore or has been opened by a careful reader. So, in your pathetic attempte at humor, your are blaming me for not knowing things that no one else could possibly know either. You're really sort of dumb, aren't you? A veritable dim bulb! 'Fess up, now... [Memo from the upstairs office.] Good old balmy palmy, just making stuff up as you go along, as usual. Palmjob, you cretin, I know you are a reclusive, anti-social old fart- sniffer but even a moron like you should have enough knowledge of human nature to know that if the book looked like it was new, the dealer would charge you for a new book, not a used one. You're really sort of dumb, aren't you? A veritable dim bulb! 'Fess up, now... |
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