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Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 21st 06, 04:57 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Welsh
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Posts: 72
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160004948032

Reported by Cliff Laubstein of CFDL:



Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com



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  #2  
Old August 21st 06, 05:18 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Hinz
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Posts: 1,538
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:57:18 -0700, Dave Welsh wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160004948032


Did you report it to eBay SafeHarbor, Dave?

  #3  
Old August 21st 06, 06:23 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Welsh
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Posts: 72
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:57:18 -0700, Dave Welsh wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160004948032


Did you report it to eBay SafeHarbor, Dave?


No. As I made amply clear in another thread, reporting individual auctions
to eBay impresses me as a waste of time. I've reported it to this NG. If
you, or some other RCC reader who disagrees with my views about eBay think
it's really worth while to report this auction, please feel free to spend
your time on that (in my opinion unrewarding) task. You are just as aware of
this incident now as I am.

Those who have worked to suppress online auction fraud in the past have
almost all given up on eBay SafeHarbor. I'm one of them. Yes, eBay does pull
most questionable auctions when they are reported but the fraudsters simply
go on to another auction.

The Toronto group cast forgery I have just reported (in the message I sent
before this one) is an example of that. It was reported to eBay, and all
that happened is that the seller ended the auction and relisted it. Do you
think eBay can be induced to do something effective about this fraudulent
seller? Here's all the information you need to go demonstrate how effective
eBay's Safe Harbor system is in suppressing fraud. I'll be interested to see
what results you achieve.

I intend to present factual evidence to the NG periodically as to what is
really happening on eBay, so that everyone in the group can judge for
themselves whether eBay should be allowed to continue operating a venue for
collectibles, antiquities and other items for which authenticity is
important, without any effective policing. This will also serve the useful
purpose of warning RCC readers about some auctions that should be avoided.

Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com



  #4  
Old August 21st 06, 07:19 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Ian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 196
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay



Dave Welsh wrote:

Those who have worked to suppress online auction fraud in the past have
almost all given up on eBay SafeHarbor. I'm one of them.


I'm another. it is the most singularly frustrating and unrewarding waste
of personal time imaginable.


The Toronto group cast forgery I have just reported (in the message I sent
before this one) is an example of that. It was reported to eBay, and all
that happened is that the seller ended the auction and relisted it. Do you
think eBay can be induced to do something effective about this fraudulent
seller? Here's all the information you need to go demonstrate how effective
eBay's Safe Harbor system is in suppressing fraud. I'll be interested to see
what results you achieve.


If memory serves, it is not the first time that red flags have been
waved concerning this seller. It probably won't be the last.

I intend to present factual evidence to the NG periodically as to what is
really happening on eBay


While a `heads up' is always appreciated, I don't think that there are
many here who don't already know `what is really happening on ebay'. If
you think you are letting us into some big secret we don't already know
about then you would be wrong.

That does not mean that individual instances of fakes being sold should
not be brought to the attention, especially if accompanied with the
factors establishing why they are being hailed as `fakes'. However, the
general reality of ebay being a safe haven and feeding ground for
fraudsters and shysters is nothing new to the peop's here on rcc.

, so that everyone in the group can judge for
themselves whether eBay should be allowed to continue operating a venue for
collectibles, antiquities and other items for which authenticity is
important, without any effective policing. This will also serve the useful
purpose of warning RCC readers about some auctions that should be avoided.


Profit and dividend are ebays key motivators..... not fraud prevention.
Until they are persuaded that it too should be a key motivator their
activities in that arena are likely to remain purely `token'.

There are lots of decent people out there selling their wares on ebay.
They are not `bad' for using a `venue' that is far from perfect. I
wouldn't stop buying from them because ebay can't/ won't match my
expectations of what I would like it to be. As long as you keep your
wits about you there are good deals to be had and fair people to deal
with on ebay. If you blink however you could very easily find yourself
on the wrong end of a bad deal. Life's like that though.

Ian
`caveat emptor'

Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com



  #5  
Old August 21st 06, 07:24 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Hinz
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,538
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:23:10 -0700, Dave Welsh wrote:
"Dave Hinz" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 08:57:18 -0700, Dave Welsh wrote:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160004948032


Did you report it to eBay SafeHarbor, Dave?


No. As I made amply clear in another thread, reporting individual auctions
to eBay impresses me as a waste of time.


You claimed that that was the event which kicks off a series of events
which do this, that, and the other. So thank you for clarifying that
your goal in participating here is only to badmouth eBay while doing
nothing to help the situation.

In other words, you're a do-nothing noisemaker.

  #6  
Old August 21st 06, 08:26 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Welsh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

"Ian" wrote in message
k...


Dave Welsh wrote:

[SNIP]
, so that everyone in the group can judge for
themselves whether eBay should be allowed to continue operating a venue

for
collectibles, antiquities and other items for which authenticity is
important, without any effective policing. This will also serve the

useful
purpose of warning RCC readers about some auctions that should be

avoided.

Profit and dividend are ebays key motivators..... not fraud prevention.
Until they are persuaded that it too should be a key motivator their
activities in that arena are likely to remain purely `token'.

There are lots of decent people out there selling their wares on ebay.
They are not `bad' for using a `venue' that is far from perfect.


The message I am trying to present is NOT that the "decent people out there
selling their wares on ebay" are bad, or that RCC readers should stop
bidding in their auctions.

The wrong that is being done on eBay is the work of a relatively small
number of unscrupulous criminals, and it is also the work of an amoral venue
that is perfectly willing to go on taking the commissions these fraudsters
pay so long as this can be done without any legal liability.

I am trying to convince RCC readers that it is time that eBay should acquire
legal liability for facilitating all this fraud, as a result of Government
regulatory action. That is the only sort of "persuasion" I can imagine eBay
responding to.

I
wouldn't stop buying from them because ebay can't/ won't match my
expectations of what I would like it to be. As long as you keep your
wits about you there are good deals to be had and fair people to deal
with on ebay. If you blink however you could very easily find yourself
on the wrong end of a bad deal. Life's like that though.


It's tough being a month-old calf trying to cross the Zambezi, with all
those crocodiles hungrily awaiting you. That's much like being a neophyte
candidate-collector who wants to get into the hobby by buying coins on eBay.

On the other hand, modern society does have laws and police forces to
provide a more orderly system than the "law of the jungle," and to protect
the ignorant and unwary. When a venue such as eBay reaches the point of
being a significant factor in the lives of a large proportion of the
population, it is appropriate that it should be subject to regulation to
prevent criminals from using it to defraud the public.


Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com




  #7  
Old August 21st 06, 10:39 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Ian
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 196
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay



Dave Welsh wrote:

(Snip)
....... and it is also the work of an amoral venue
that is perfectly willing to go on taking the commissions these fraudsters
pay so long as this can be done without any legal liability.


The fact of the matter is that it currently operates within the law.

I am trying to convince RCC readers that it is time that eBay should acquire
legal liability for facilitating all this fraud, as a result of Government
regulatory action. That is the only sort of "persuasion" I can imagine eBay
responding to.


Ebay is present in what...some 55 countries now (?), all with diverse
legal systems. One of these countries is China...a land where you can
find all the rare coins you could possibly imagine.....and at
ridiculously low prices too (if only....). It is going to be immensly
difficult to get any catch all legislation on the move. Now maybe if
George Bush were a coin collector and he had been sold a lemon from the
so called Toronto forger we could at least expect a Marine Batallion or
two and perhaps a few F16 squadrons to be dedicated to `persuading' ebay
as well as destroying the evil axis of international die cast
forgers...... :-)

(snip)

It's tough being a month-old calf trying to cross the Zambezi, with all
those crocodiles hungrily awaiting you. That's much like being a neophyte
candidate-collector who wants to get into the hobby by buying coins on eBay.


They used to say the same things about mail bid auctions. ...and in many
cases rightly so. Before ebay I used to have to rely on live / mail bid
auctions for my coins. I was sold a number of lemons in the process from
quite `reputable' auction houses too. Sadly for me, while some were
quite obvious to this neophyte (at that time), some were not so obvious
(they sure are now though!) and i'm stuck with them.


On the other hand, modern society does have laws and police forces to
provide a more orderly system than the "law of the jungle," and to protect
the ignorant and unwary.


More orderly....perhaps, but with regards to protecting the ignorant and
unwary....your confidence is apparently greater than mine.

I've often preached that one doesn't need to put one's hand into a fire
to realise that fire burns. Unfortunately there are people who simply
won't take that in and who will insist on sticking their hand in to see
for themselves. For my sins, I've done it myself in buying a coin I knew
to be a forgery from the `Toronto' forger. I came out on top with
regards to my prime objectives but the secondary objective in testing
the Ebay `compensation' scheme showed that it was designed to discourage
people from making claims at every step of the way. Not impossible, but
at low amounts (ie under $100, you are going to be involved in more
expense than the amount you are going to recover. In other words, it is
not a viable proposition. My experience of dealing with the morons at
ebay was not a pleasant one.

Let's face it. It does not require `intelligence' to use ebay. It does
however require intelligence to navigate it safely. The crocs are
sometimes cunningly disguised as ebay pro forma's and `customer support'.

Perhaps people should be made to pass an IQ test before being allowed to
bid on ebay. That coupled with an elementary education concerning human
nature and the fact that there ARE crocodiles out there waiting for six
month old calfs to go try their hand at swimming would probably solve
the perceived problem overnight.

When a venue such as eBay reaches the point of
being a significant factor in the lives of a large proportion of the
population, it is appropriate that it should be subject to regulation to
prevent criminals from using it to defraud the public.


If you can make people savvy by getting them into communication with
other collectors via coin clubs and coin sites such as coinpeople.com or
cointalk.org, r.c.c. and other entities like the coinforgery email group
you mention, then you would be making a lot of progress in the right
direction. Education is the key. Not legislation, although if it could
be used to help remove a few crocs from the water, i'd not be agin it.

  #8  
Old August 21st 06, 11:17 PM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Dave Welsh
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 72
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

"Ian" wrote in message
k...

Dave Welsh wrote:
(Snip)
....... and it is also the work of an amoral venue
that is perfectly willing to go on taking the commissions these

fraudsters
pay so long as this can be done without any legal liability.


The fact of the matter is that it currently operates within the law.


You are absolutely correct in that statement. eBay does presently have a
legal right to operate their venue as they presently do.

I believe and advocate that, the present legal situation should be changed,
and that eBay should be required to institute measures that would
effectively bring fraud under control.

I am trying to convince RCC readers that it is time that eBay should

acquire
legal liability for facilitating all this fraud, as a result of

Government
regulatory action. That is the only sort of "persuasion" I can imagine

eBay
responding to.


Ebay is present in what...some 55 countries now (?), all with diverse
legal systems.


To accomplish what I propose, it is only necessary to pass legislation in
the USA. The USA is a large enough part of eBay's business to compel action.
The changes that would be required would not bring eBay into conflict with
any other nation's laws.

One of these countries is China...a land where you can
find all the rare coins


Fakes of rare coins, of course. Just like everything else that is "knocked
off" in China. The words "Chinese copy" come to mind. Some of these copies
are really rather deceptive.

(snip)
... modern society does have laws and police forces to
provide a more orderly system than the "law of the jungle," and to

protect
the ignorant and unwary.


More orderly....perhaps, but with regards to protecting the ignorant and
unwary....your confidence is apparently greater than mine.


Nothing will ever do a totally effective job of protecting the ignorant and
unwary, but we can still improve their odds of escaping disaster by quite a
bit.

....
When a venue such as eBay reaches the point of
being a significant factor in the lives of a large proportion of the
population, it is appropriate that it should be subject to regulation to
prevent criminals from using it to defraud the public.


If you can make people savvy by getting them into communication with
other collectors via coin clubs and coin sites such as coinpeople.com or
cointalk.org, r.c.c. and other entities like the coinforgery email group
you mention, then you would be making a lot of progress in the right
direction. Education is the key. Not legislation, although if it could
be used to help remove a few crocs from the water, i'd not be agin it.


No, I don't agree. Education by all means, but legislation is also needed.
Anonymous seller identities, private auctions and private feedback are being
grossly abused by scammers and must be prohibited, or at least very strictly
regulated. Relisting exposed fakes should also be prohibited.


Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com



  #9  
Old August 22nd 06, 12:29 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Amistad
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 661
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay

"Dave Welsh" offered a few cogent words about the matter:
Anonymous seller identities, private auctions and private feedback are
being
grossly abused by scammers and must be prohibited, or at least very
strictly
regulated. Relisting exposed fakes should also be prohibited.


To which this ol' country boy hollers "Amen!" and "Amen!"

Amistad
'"It's time to clean the manure out of the barn." --H. Ross Perot


  #10  
Old August 22nd 06, 02:01 AM posted to rec.collecting.coins
Bruce Remick
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,391
Default Another fake Greek coin sold on eBay


"Dave Welsh" wrote in message
news:wKnGg.1449$AP2.582@fed1read10...
"Ian" wrote in message
k...


Dave Welsh wrote:

[SNIP]
, so that everyone in the group can judge for
themselves whether eBay should be allowed to continue operating a venue

for
collectibles, antiquities and other items for which authenticity is
important, without any effective policing. This will also serve the

useful
purpose of warning RCC readers about some auctions that should be

avoided.

Profit and dividend are ebays key motivators..... not fraud prevention.
Until they are persuaded that it too should be a key motivator their
activities in that arena are likely to remain purely `token'.

There are lots of decent people out there selling their wares on ebay.
They are not `bad' for using a `venue' that is far from perfect.


The message I am trying to present is NOT that the "decent people out there
selling their wares on ebay" are bad, or that RCC readers should stop
bidding in their auctions.

The wrong that is being done on eBay is the work of a relatively small
number of unscrupulous criminals, and it is also the work of an amoral venue
that is perfectly willing to go on taking the commissions these fraudsters
pay so long as this can be done without any legal liability.

I am trying to convince RCC readers that it is time that eBay should acquire
legal liability for facilitating all this fraud, as a result of Government
regulatory action. That is the only sort of "persuasion" I can imagine eBay
responding to.



Dave, if this is such an emotional issue with you, I can't imagine why you don't
try to do something about it beside preaching to the choir here. I accept that
there is, and probably always will be, fraud on a site like eBay, considering
the wide variety of items there. Therefore, I am careful to bid on only those
collectibles that I feel qualified to verify as authentic. I don't feel
vulnerable and feel no desire to sic the government on eBay.

You seem to want everyone here to jump on the eBay-fraud crusade bandwagon with
you. Yet by your own admission in an earlier post, IIRC, you last reported a
bogus eBay auction item a year or so ago, and had reported none during the three
years before that. I think your outrage would get a bit more sympathy if you
had been constantly reporting every phony ancient coin auction you saw on eBay,
but getting no satisfaction. I'm sure there are those here who would value any
current eBay auctions you care to point out in rcc where a bogus coin is
offered, and would appreciate your expertice. Meanwhile, most of us may be
content to go about our eBay browsing, occasionally reporting a counterfeit coin
auction, if we feel qualified to, without the inclination to protect the world
from itself and from eBay fraudsters.

The well known fact that there are indeed phony collectibles being offered as
authentic on eBay should encourage collectors to learn even more about any items
they collect that have been subject to fraud and/or counterfeiting. I don't
collect ancient coins and while I find them fascinating, I don't know anything
about them. But following these threads, I have learned to beware of
counterfeit ancients. Thus I wouldn't buy an expensive or scarce one "blind" on
eBay any more than I would buy a bargain diamond engagement ring from a dealer's
table at an outdoor flea market. For that kind of stuff I would rely on a
respected dealer-- not eBay or that flea market (unless I trusted myself as an
expert).

I don't expect an anti-fraud petition from eBay members would have any impact on
eBay policy, any more than my letter to Heinz complaining that their sweet
relish in its new squeeze-bottle squirts mostly liquid when inverted above a hot
dog. At best, the petition would be passed to the appropriate office and my
letter to the Heinz human factors research dept.

Bruce






 




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