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#11
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Namiki Falcon
On Mar 26, 10:30 am, Barutan Seijin wrote:
Am 24 Mar 2007, BL schrieb: Barutan Seijin wrote: It's not that hard. One only applies pressure on the downstrokes. That's the only way it would work anyway, so in effect, one does what comes naturally. To an FP user, that is. Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn? They weren't for me. I will agree that it's harder & more time consuming to write in such a hand. -- come on, it's keeping the lines at uniform widths at different stages of the stroke throughout the writing. To master such a skill takes yonks. -- Because things just arent that easy |
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#12
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Namiki Falcon
In oups.com,
yland45 wrote: On Mar 26, 10:30 am, Barutan Seijin wrote: Am 24 Mar 2007, BL schrieb: Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn? They weren't for me. I will agree that it's harder & more time consuming to write in such a hand. come on, it's keeping the lines at uniform widths at different stages of the stroke throughout the writing. To master such a skill takes yonks. The hardest part of Copperplate, for me, is keeping the micro-jitters from my hand out of the thinnest lines. The modulated strokes are easier in that respect, because of the steadying effect of the pressure on the point. Brian -- |
#13
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Namiki Falcon//More on flex
"BL" wrote in message
news:JycNh.1821$yo3.1198@trnddc04... Here is a link to Anna's excellent article. Anyone interested in what flex nibs can and can't do for your writing should read this: http://www.paperpenalia.com/flex2.html (Read her Joy of Flex 1 too --- you can navigate to other articles on her page using the link above). Hi BL, Thanks for the articles! (My news account stopped working over the weekend - I think it's recovered now). -- Moira |
#14
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Namiki Falcon//More on flex
On 2007-03-24 16:35:03 GMT, "BL" said:
Barutan Seijin wrote: It's not that hard. One only applies pressure on the downstrokes. That's the only way it would work anyway, so in effect, one does what comes naturally. To an FP user, that is. Are you saying Spencerian and Copperplate aren't that hard to learn? If so, I'll have to disagree with you. Anyone with a light touch can write with a flexible- nibbed fountain pen. However, being able to write with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen and actually producing beautiful writing with one are two entirely different things. Anna Lawson wrote a nice explanation of this on her web site, but I can't remember the URL. On 2007-03-24 11:43:21 -0500, "BL" said: Here is a link to Anna's excellent article. Anyone interested in what flex nibs can and can't do for your writing should read this: http://www.paperpenalia.com/flex2.html Quoting from this link, I think she says it best when she remarks, It’s not so much difficult as it is exacting, and it requires great attention to the tiniest details we’re not accustomed to worrying about. I would have to agree with this statement. I don't think the concepts or any of the mechanics of Spencerian (she was speaking in reference to copperplate, but I have more experience in Spencerian) are particularly difficult or trying. In fact, I would say it is a very simple and straightforward form of writing. I encounter two problems, however, when people attempt to learn this style of writing. First, that they lack the proper motor skills, experience, and pen grip to achieve the shapes of the writing, and two, they simply don't have an eye for the details. The former is MUCH easier to solve, IMO. I discovered some scanned copies of old Spencerian manuscripts somewhere on the web, and they were instrumental in helping me achieve a somewhat tolerable style of writing. I am still far from perfect in my normal writing speed, since I have not spent enough time developing those motor skills, but I receive constant complements from uninformed people as to the better appearance of my handwriting. The manuscripts I read gave some simple exercises and forms to practice which make learning Spencerian much easier, since, like any other exercise routine, isolating the muscle groups and techniques for particular pieces of the letters was not a really intuitive thing for me to do. Once I was even partially adept at this, I noticed immediate improvements in my style. After that, it's just learning to pay attention to those details and not get ahead of yourself. One thing the manuscript mentions which is also rather insightful is that one ought to write as fast as on can while still maintaining the shapes and forms of the letters. I notice that hitting that right balance of speed and precision greatly enhances the consistency, and consequently, beauty of the writing. At least for me, I sometimes have to speed up to make my writing look better, rathre than slow down. I have yet to take the time to purchase a good really truly flexible nib to try out the more sophisticated aspects of Spencerian, but even with today's modern, stiff nibs, the Spencerian forms look wonderful. I also might add that Spencerian was not originally designed, as I understand it, to be a calligraphic writing style. I believe it was created as a business style of writing to be taught in schools. If a bunch of young kids could learn to write decently (though not perfectly) in this form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit from some practice along these lines. [If I have misrepresented any facts in this post, please correct me.] - Aaron Hsu -- |
#15
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Namiki Falcon//More on flex
Aaron Hsu wrote:
.... If a bunch of young kids could learn to write decently (though not perfectly) in this form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit from some practice along these lines. Hi Aaron... Here's how Anna opens her piece: "Chances are, if you've purchased a flexible-nibbed pen with the expectation that it would make your handwriting look fantastic, you were disappointed. Popular belief seems to be that merely using a flexible nib ... will automatically confer beauty on your handwriting. Unfortunately, it's not so. This is what I not-so-fondly call the flexible-nib myth." Later she writes, "Sorry to bring the bad news, but truly beautiful handwriting comes from disciplined practice and the application of specific skills." The main purpose of my post on the subject (which you quoted) was to point out that writing in Spencerian or Copperplate script does not come naturally from writing with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. You will discover this too when you buy your first flexible-nibbed fountain pen. I'm not saying that you won't find your writing pleasing to the eye or that other people won't find it pleasing to the eye. But pleasing to the eye does not equate with a particular style of writing. I was visiting Bert Heiserman's antique pen shop in Kensington, Maryland, one Sunday afternoon several years ago and saw a friend who'd been working on developing his skills in the Copperplate style. He told me that he had bought a book (or two or three) and had been practicing the letter forms. Buying a book and practicing letter forms does not, at least to me, equate with "doing what comes naturally." He gave me a lesson in Copperplate. As Anna pointed out in her article, one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their fingers and their wrist. In Spencerian and Copperplate writing, one holds the fingers and wrist stationary (wrist cocked at a funny angle) and moves the pen with the arm and shoulder. This simply didn't feel natural to me. Now this doesn't mean that I couldn't learn how to write that way or that I think others can't learn to write that way. I believe that just about anyone can *learn* to write that way, but doing so requires more than just buying a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. It requires study and practice. Requiring study and practice necessarily implies that whatever it is doesn't come naturally. Have fun with your dip pens. Cheers -- B |
#16
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Namiki Falcon//More on flex
On Thu, 05 Apr 2007 14:25:38 GMT, "BL"
wrote: As Anna pointed out in her article, one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their fingers and their wrist. And that is how we were trained, so the other seems odd now. The story was that Spencer designed his method to be comfortable over hours of professional writing and was the end result of trying and testing other ways first. In any event, it is hard to compare writing then, in a day that the desks and sometimes chairs were designed with the idea that you would primarily be writing when using them and now, when it is the best height for your keyboard that controls and writing is an afterthought. The best place I have for writing is a campaign desk that I redid the height to make it lower. Nowhere near any computer. I also think that the thought to paper process was different for most in that era. We are in an era when people learn that they can backspace through anything and redo their thought at any time. People speak in incomplete sentences and change their thought in mid sentence, mangling structure and agreement. That is not a great way to think if you want a good looking finished product using an ink pen of any sort. Unless, of course, you don't mind that it is incomprehensible, as long as it looks good. Yeah, I know, all that said, back then they probably wrote better at the kitchen table than I do on my favorite paper at my favorite desk. Emerson at his round table probably wrote with a better hand. Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels... |
#17
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Namiki Falcon//More on flex
On 2007-04-05 09:25:38 -0500, "BL" said:
Aaron Hsu wrote: .... If a bunch of young kids could learn to write decently (though not perfectly) in this form, surely some disciplined adults can benefit from some practice along these lines. Hi Aaron... Here's how Anna opens her piece: "Chances are, if you've purchased a flexible-nibbed pen with the expectation that it would make your handwriting look fantastic, you were disappointed. Popular belief seems to be that merely using a flexible nib ... will automatically confer beauty on your handwriting. Unfortunately, it's not so. This is what I not-so-fondly call the flexible-nib myth." Later she writes, "Sorry to bring the bad news, but truly beautiful handwriting comes from disciplined practice and the application of specific skills." The main purpose of my post on the subject (which you quoted) was to point out that writing in Spencerian or Copperplate script does not come naturally from writing with a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. You will discover this too when you buy your first flexible-nibbed fountain pen. I'm not saying that you won't find your writing pleasing to the eye or that other people won't find it pleasing to the eye. But pleasing to the eye does not equate with a particular style of writing. Aah, see, then I probably misunderstood your point. I am in complete agreement with you there. In fact, for modern aspiring penmen, it's probably easier to start with something other than a flexible-nib pen, with which they are not very family, so that they have to learn fewer things at once. I think we are just making different points here. :-) My point was more that Spencerian or Copperplate writing is not inherently more difficult than the Palmer (I think that's what you call it) or Italic methods in more prevelant use today. I was visiting Bert Heiserman's antique pen shop in Kensington, Maryland, one Sunday afternoon several years ago and saw a friend who'd been working on developing his skills in the Copperplate style. He told me that he had bought a book (or two or three) and had been practicing the letter forms. Buying a book and practicing letter forms does not, at least to me, equate with "doing what comes naturally." He gave me a lesson in Copperplate. As Anna pointed out in her article, one has to hold the pen at a funny angle and involve the entire arm and shoulder in the movements. When most people write, they move their fingers and their wrist. In Spencerian and Copperplate writing, one holds the fingers and wrist stationary (wrist cocked at a funny angle) and moves the pen with the arm and shoulder. This simply didn't feel natural to me. Now this doesn't mean that I couldn't learn how to write that way or that I think others can't learn to write that way. I believe that just about anyone can *learn* to write that way, but doing so requires more than just buying a flexible-nibbed fountain pen. It requires study and practice. Requiring study and practice necessarily implies that whatever it is doesn't come naturally. Have fun with your dip pens. Cheers :-) I am very much looking forward to finally having a pen capable of the full Spencerian expression (instead of my monoline pseudo-spencerian I have been doing). However, I think we should also realize that the term Natural has a strong relative meaning. I think one of the great tragedies of our day which has overtaken many of our would-be scholars convinces them that writing well is nearly impossible. They seem convinced that the authors of the past were somehow genetically different and "born to write" rather than, say, type at a keyboard. With anyone who shows even an inclings desire to improve their writing, I try to impress upon them the attainability of such a goal. The task of learning good penmanship appears much less daunting if they realize that once style of writing is not inherently more difficult or unnatural than another, just different. -- Aaron Hsu |
#18
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íèâêà íå ìîÿ, à ñåðï ÷óæîé.
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