If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Curiosity Corner #101 Who owns the stamps on mail?
http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340
Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
"Rodney" skrev i en meddelelse
... http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Good question! Exactly the same thing happened to me a couple of years ago, when I sent a letter to a friend in Holland, franked with a new issue, and cancelled on the day of issue, particularly meant for my friend's topical collection. When the letter arrived in Holland, the stamp had carefully been lifted off, and only the remaining part of the cancellation on the cover itself was left! The Danish post office rejected any claim, stating that the stamp could have fallen off during the travel to Holland. The Dutch post office rejected any claim, stating that their job was to deliver the mail, which they had done. But it was still obvious that the stamp had been removed by someone unauthorized ... -- Ann Mette Heindorff (Mette) return address invalid -- contact me through heindorffstamps at yahoo dot dk http://www.arthistos.frac.dk http://www.xs4all.nl/~pkv/slania http://www.dkchristmasseals.frac.dk |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
This is the only problem with 'controlled' mail. Even so, since the post
office caters to stamp collecting it would be in their interest to prevent this kind of abuse. It happens that certain postal employees are knowledgeable collectors. Some of them, evidently, see the profit in lifting high-value stamps, or anything they can get away. Dealers also provide a ready market for any items with a potential mark-up. Technically it's mail theft since in this case the sender and recipient are trading in stamps. I suggest hiring a big-time lawyer and going for broke against the government. Please keep this newsgroup posted as to your progress. :-) -a -- Reply? Not to above. Use "Rodney" wrote in message ... http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote: http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) I read a story, about a year ago I reckon, where the postman at the door removed the stamps from the package before handing it over. The protest that followed was answered with something like " the stamps are and remain property of the post, you only pay for the tranport of the package. You are not entittled to these stamps." If this story is true? I can't tell, but It was published in the philatellic press. (can't recall which paper it was). Erik |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for
lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps. Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country, the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue official obligations like that. In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer). In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to the use stamps. Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property. When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not "buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid in advance for services that could no longer be given using the "obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the stamps" that people had purchased in advance. In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it found out who took it and managed to retreive it. Len Nadybal Washington DC On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney" wrote: http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
LN in DC wrote:
The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps. Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country, the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue official obligations like that. In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer). In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to the use stamps. Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property. When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not "buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid in advance for services that could no longer be given using the "obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the stamps" that people had purchased in advance. In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it found out who took it and managed to retreive it. Len Nadybal Washington DC Interesting. Do you have any cites for these laws? = Eric On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney" wrote: http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Hi, Eric,
It all starts from: TITLE 18 US Code PART I CHAPTER 1 Sec. 1. Sec. 8. Sec. 8. - Obligation or other security of the United States defined The term ''obligation or other security of the United States'' includes all bonds, certificates of indebtedness, national bank currency, Federal Reserve notes, Federal Reserve bank notes, coupons, United States notes, Treasury notes, gold certificates, silver certificates, fractional notes, certificates of deposit, bills, checks, or drafts for money, drawn by or upon authorized officers of the United States, stamps and other representatives of value, of whatever denomination, issued under any Act of Congress, and canceled United States stamps" --- Note "canceled US stamps - that includes used ones. Nothing in the law intends that the nature of these things as obligation of the U. S. shall cease, even once cancelled! Collectors of stamps are, in legal reality, accumulators of obligations fof the U. S. About the German post - I'll have to research that a little. There was an analysis of the legal property rights over German stamps in the Deutsche Briefmarken Zeitung years ago, but I'm not sure that it was an article I clipped. maybe. There's an Autralian post website that makes reference to this issue - how if you ask for personalized stamps and they print them and later find out you plagiarized or stole someone else's image for placement on an obligation of the Australian government, how you have committed a crime of more than just copyright violation, but defrauded the state by causing it to reproduce a fraudulent image on a fiscal document of the state. Regards LN On Mon, 31 May 2004 11:59:50 -0700, Eric Bustad wrote: LN in DC wrote: The replies all touched on the refulsal of the post to reimburse for lost stamps on mail, not the question of who owns the stamps. Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the letters, even after you receive them. Technically, in this country, the theft was from the post office, not the sender or the receiver of the mail. In the case of international mail, which government was the victim is yet to be deterined. If the government from which the mail left doesn't have the same law as the U.S. does, then the victim would be some other owner. In countries where the post offices have been privatized, then the post office as a commercial entity and not a government would be the victim - unless the commercial entity sells the stamps and doesn't actually treat them as advance receipts isssued for services provided. As governmental issues, stamps are obligations of the state - commercial firms well products - they can't issue official obligations like that. In the case of Germany, when you mail a package, the stamps go on a parcel tag, not on the package itself - and the post office keeps the tag on arrival. You can't claim the stamps from the tag - the postal clerk will tell you that they belong to the state (the state Finance Ministry issues the stamps that the German privatized post office uses and which "sells" as agent of the treasurer). In years past, one of the best ways to get quantities of used high value stamps was through state auctions of the mailing tags.... it was in these auctions that the state actually sold the property rights to the use stamps. Technically, in countries where the stamps are obligations of the state, and to the extent they haven't been demonetized, they state could confiscate collections as being full of state owned property. When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not "buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid in advance for services that could no longer be given using the "obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the stamps" that people had purchased in advance. In short, getting the state to procesute someone who stole the stamps off a letter sent to you is going to be tough - and even if your bagatelle complaint managed to get action, the state would maybe not be under any obligation to turn its property over to you even if it found out who took it and managed to retreive it. Len Nadybal Washington DC Interesting. Do you have any cites for these laws? = Eric On Fri, 28 May 2004 15:12:54 +0800, "Rodney" wrote: http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=340 Courtesy Aust Stamp News 1991 Author Les Winick Chicago (Remove gum to reply) |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Here's the provision relating to foreign stamps in the U.S.:
TITLE 18 PART I CHAPTER 1 Sec. 1. Sec. 15. Prev | Next Sec. 15. - Obligation or other security of foreign government defined The term ''obligation or other security of any foreign government'' includes, but is not limited to, uncanceled stamps, whether or not demonetized" LN |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
(LN in DC) wrote in message om...
Under an obscure U.S. law, the post office owns the stamps on the letters, even after you receive them. I looked at the U.S. Code online at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ and was unable to locate this law, and I wonder how such a law could be consistent with the existence of philately. Wouldn't all the sales of U.S. stamps by private parties be invalid if the sellers never owned the stamps? When Europe went to the Euro and administrations "bought" back old stamps demonetized in the former national currencies, they were not "buying" back anything, they were merely refunding what mailers paid in advance for services that could no longer be given using the "obligations to perform a service in the future through the use of the stamps" that people had purchased in advance. I do not know what all of the European postal services did with regard to refunding stamps denominated in the pre-euro currencies, but not all of them declared that mailing services could not be provided using stamps denominated in the old currency. According to the following article, France, at least, continues to accept stamps denominated in francs at the fixed franc-euro conversion rate. http://faqphilatelie.lautre.net/arti...?id_article=58 (article in French) Also, Sweden's postal service would have continued to accept stamps denominated in krona if Sweden had adopted the euro, based on the krona-euro conversion rate which would have been fixed. As it turned out, Sweden didn't adopt the euro so that didn't become necessary. http://www.championstamp.com/Acrobat/ChampionSC.pdf Other euro-using countries have different practices. Finland will allow use of denominated stamps through 2011, for example. http://www.posti.fi/english/tariffsa...urocalculator/ Joshua Kreitzer |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Curiosity Corner #77 Ballymaclinton cachet. | Rodney | General Discussion | 0 | February 21st 04 03:01 AM |
Green Shield stamps | TC | General Discussion | 1 | January 12th 04 01:59 PM |
Royal Mail Issues New Train Stamps | Stamp Master Album | US Stamps | 0 | January 3rd 04 12:56 PM |
Curiosity Corner #51: A British Empire Essay | Rodney | General Discussion | 5 | December 12th 03 05:03 AM |
The end of anonymous mail and the beginning of Big Brother stamps? | campylobacter | General Discussion | 2 | August 8th 03 02:02 PM |