A very sad "What walked into the shop today" story.

"Anita" wrote in message
...
Soon we'll have dealers opening their own services
so they can "objectively" grade their own coins.

I don't see any difference between a dealer putting an overgraded/problem
coin into a sonically sealed plastic holder bearing a label and a logo and
his putting the same overgraded/problem coin into a stapled 2x2 cardboard
holder bearing a felt-tip inscription. If the first is criminal, so is the
second, and you will see the perpetration of such at any coin show you wish
to attend and in any advertisement you wish to patronize. It's been going
on since as far back as I can remember, and that's getting to be quite a
long time now. One's only defense against this is to read the grading
guides and see what they have to say.

James

The ridiculous coin grading system used in the USA does, unfortunately,
give the less ethical plenty of scope to rip off the less knowledgeable
coin buyer.

As long as (alleged) tiny grade improvements equal a leap in value many
more will be ripped off I'm afraid.

I have posted more than once that it makes no sense to pay silly money
for a tiny (alleged) grade improvement.

Will there ever be a collector uprising against the MS madness?

It is a very sad story indeed. Billy


Wes Chormicle wrote:

During the past couple of weeks I've had a few phone conversation with an
elderly man who was thinking of selling his collection of Morgan dollars and
Gold coins. He faxed me a list of about 80 coins that he had bought over
the last year, along with what he paid for them (close to $225,000). I
started to have a real sick feeling about this and asked him if he would
mind bringing in a few of the coins so I could look at them and give him a
better idea of what we could do for him.

He brought in 8 Morgan dollars, all graded by NTC. Here is what they are
and what he paid:

1879 S MS-67 $750
1880 S MS-66 $600
1881 O MS-66 $1800
1884 O MS-66 $800
1899 S MS-64 $900
1901 O MS-66 $1500
1921 MS-66 $1200
1921 S MS-66 $13000

I knew that at best, this was not going to be pretty, and at worst it might
be a coronary in the store. I asked him if he could leave them with me for
a couple of hours while I brought up recent auction history and price
guides.

When he returned, I explained that he was sold coins using the PCGS price
list for coins certified by a "3rd tier" grading company. I had printed out
recent eBay auctions with some of the exact coins in NTC holders and showed
him that the prices realized were 10% of what he had paid.

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

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On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 19:03:38 GMT, "Wes Chormicle"
wrote:

During the past couple of weeks I've had a few phone conversation with an
elderly man who was thinking of selling his collection of Morgan dollars and
Gold coins. He faxed me a list of about 80 coins that he had bought over
the last year, along with what he paid for them (close to $225,000). I
started to have a real sick feeling about this and asked him if he would
mind bringing in a few of the coins so I could look at them and give him a
better idea of what we could do for him.

He brought in 8 Morgan dollars, all graded by NTC. Here is what they are
and what he paid:

1879 S MS-67 $750
1880 S MS-66 $600
1881 O MS-66 $1800
1884 O MS-66 $800
1899 S MS-64 $900
1901 O MS-66 $1500
1921 MS-66 $1200
1921 S MS-66 $13000

I knew that at best, this was not going to be pretty, and at worst it might
be a coronary in the store. I asked him if he could leave them with me for
a couple of hours while I brought up recent auction history and price
guides.

When he returned, I explained that he was sold coins using the PCGS price
list for coins certified by a "3rd tier" grading company. I had printed out
recent eBay auctions with some of the exact coins in NTC holders and showed
him that the prices realized were 10% of what he had paid.

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

AAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another black eye for
our hobby!!!! Scumbag telemarketer and also sounds like the gentlemen
ddnt do his homework. He was clearly out to make a investment in
this, not to do this as a collector!! That was a good thing you did
by researching recent auctions and explaining it to him to make him
understand.

Did you ask him if he possibly wanted to send them PCGS or NGC to
cross at any grade, just to see what they would come back as??

Regards,

Gary

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
The ridiculous coin grading system used in the USA does, unfortunately,
give the less ethical plenty of scope to rip off the less knowledgeable
coin buyer.

As long as (alleged) tiny grade improvements equal a leap in value many
more will be ripped off I'm afraid.

I have posted more than once that it makes no sense to pay silly money
for a tiny (alleged) grade improvement.

Will there ever be a collector uprising against the MS madness?

It is a very sad story indeed. Billy


Well I don't collect coins that way so not all Americans are attracted to slabs.
Actually I tend to grade coins European style but I know how to grade the US
way (as good as most anyway).

Dale

You are very sensible. Billy


Dale Hallmark wrote:

"note.boy" wrote in message
...
The ridiculous coin grading system used in the USA does, unfortunately,
give the less ethical plenty of scope to rip off the less knowledgeable
coin buyer.

As long as (alleged) tiny grade improvements equal a leap in value many
more will be ripped off I'm afraid.

I have posted more than once that it makes no sense to pay silly money
for a tiny (alleged) grade improvement.

Will there ever be a collector uprising against the MS madness?

It is a very sad story indeed. Billy

Well I don't collect coins that way so not all Americans are attracted to slabs.
Actually I tend to grade coins European style but I know how to grade the US
way (as good as most anyway).

Dale

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 13:05:45 -0800, Bob Flaminio wrote:

Wes Chormicle wrote:
Here was an 80
year old man who had just lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

Ouch. 'Twere me, I'd be looking up lawyers. $200,000 is worth going
after and taking down the scumbags.
AMEN!
--
DW

Well put !!

--
Anthony L. Hawley, PO BOX 15174, Portland,Oregon 97293-5174, E-mail :
, eBay ID: ynotan1, RCC ID: ynotan, ANA # R-192172
"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message news:eU5Rd.2471
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points,
and the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color
literally drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he
had brought these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man
who had just lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer

I like to think that I know what I'm doing in the collecting of coins.
But if I'm honest about it, I know that I will likely lose money overall,
as I love the coins for what they are, not for what financial return I
might realize. They satisfy some primitive, deep-seated need within me,
and many of my fellow collectors will know what I'm talking about. This
may have been a factor in this gentleman's collection-building, whether he
would have admitted it or not.

What's the difference between what the telemarketers are allegedly doing
and what certain advertisers in respectable numismatic publications are
doing with their hype and overgrading? Or what the guys are doing when
they crackout time after time after time, seeking to maximize the slab
grade of a given coin? In my view, ignorance and greed are the mechanisms
by which people are separated from their money. My concept of human
nature prevents me from believing that either of those human frailties
will be remedied any time soon. Education might be the antidote for the
ignorance, but how can we deliver it to one who may not want it? And
greed, well, we've been working on that one, too, for a long time without
any progress. I feel sorry for the victim, but something tells me that he
would not have appreciated someone's attempt to intervene as he was buying
up the coins. And I feel sorry for you, Wes, that you had to be the bearer
of the bad news.

James
'call me a pessimist, call me a realist'

One of his questions was about resubmitting to PCGS. I explained that most
would cross far lower (like the 1921S MS 66 would probably come back a 62).
That goes from a $13,000 coin to a $50 coin. Not worth doing.

On another note, I did contact the Police in his town and asked if they
would check in on him and see if they could help him.

Wes


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Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message news:eU5Rd.2471
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points,
and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had
just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer

I like to think that I know what I'm doing in the collecting of coins.
But
if I'm honest about it, I know that I will likely lose money overall, as I
love the coins for what they are, not for what financial return I might
realize. They satisfy some primitive, deep-seated need within me, and
many
of my fellow collectors will know what I'm talking about. This may have
been a factor in this gentleman's collection-building, whether he would
have
admitted it or not.

What's the difference between what the telemarketers are allegedly doing
and
what certain advertisers in respectable numismatic publications are doing
with their hype and overgrading? Or what the guys are doing when they
crackout time after time after time, seeking to maximize the slab grade of
a
given coin? In my view, ignorance and greed are the mechanisms by which
people are separated from their money. My concept of human nature
prevents
me from believing that either of those human frailties will be remedied
any
time soon. Education might be the antidote for the ignorance, but how can
we deliver it to one who may not want it? And greed, well, we've been
working on that one, too, for a long time without any progress. I feel
sorry for the victim, but something tells me that he would not have
appreciated someone's attempt to intervene as he was buying up the coins.
And I feel sorry for you, Wes, that you had to be the bearer of the bad
news.

James
'call me a pessimist, call me a realist'


1 Timothy 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
B

"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Anita" wrote in message
...
Soon we'll have dealers opening their own services
so they can "objectively" grade their own coins.

I don't see any difference between a dealer putting an overgraded/problem
coin into a sonically sealed plastic holder bearing a label and a logo and
his putting the same overgraded/problem coin into a stapled 2x2 cardboard
holder bearing a felt-tip inscription. If the first is criminal, so is
the
second, and you will see the perpetration of such at any coin show you
wish
to attend and in any advertisement you wish to patronize. It's been going
on since as far back as I can remember, and that's getting to be quite a
long time now. One's only defense against this is to read the grading
guides and see what they have to say.

James

Grading is subjective. Its all in the eye of the beholder, so to try to
criminalize overgrading would be futile. The only way that could happen is
if some computerized standard and method of grading could universally be
used. Otherwise, its a matter of opinion and what the buyer knows and
chooses.
B