A very sad "What walked into the shop today" story.

During the past couple of weeks I've had a few phone conversation with an
elderly man who was thinking of selling his collection of Morgan dollars and
Gold coins. He faxed me a list of about 80 coins that he had bought over
the last year, along with what he paid for them (close to $225,000). I
started to have a real sick feeling about this and asked him if he would
mind bringing in a few of the coins so I could look at them and give him a
better idea of what we could do for him.

He brought in 8 Morgan dollars, all graded by NTC. Here is what they are
and what he paid:

1879 S MS-67 $750
1880 S MS-66 $600
1881 O MS-66 $1800
1884 O MS-66 $800
1899 S MS-64 $900
1901 O MS-66 $1500
1921 MS-66 $1200
1921 S MS-66 $13000

I knew that at best, this was not going to be pretty, and at worst it might
be a coronary in the store. I asked him if he could leave them with me for
a couple of hours while I brought up recent auction history and price
guides.

When he returned, I explained that he was sold coins using the PCGS price
list for coins certified by a "3rd tier" grading company. I had printed out
recent eBay auctions with some of the exact coins in NTC holders and showed
him that the prices realized were 10% of what he had paid.

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.


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Wes Chormicle let us know of a really unfortunate incident:
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

Wes, before I had read to the end of the story, I began to suspect that
the poor man had been ripped off by those sleazebags. It's a crying
shame, but for those whom they succeed in persuading that a "real deal"
is for sale, the unsuspecting buyers are their lawful prey.

Larry
'sorry to hear of this thing happening'

In article . net,
"Wes Chormicle" wrote:

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

I hate these stories. I espcially hate them because it seems that all I
as an individual can do is to think "Ain't it awful!" and get on with
my day. So I'm left feeling really angry and really helpless - that is,
really frustrated.

My sympathy to you too, Wes, for having to be the one to break the bad
news.

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message news:eU5Rd.2471
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer

I like to think that I know what I'm doing in the collecting of coins. But
if I'm honest about it, I know that I will likely lose money overall, as I
love the coins for what they are, not for what financial return I might
realize. They satisfy some primitive, deep-seated need within me, and many
of my fellow collectors will know what I'm talking about. This may have
been a factor in this gentleman's collection-building, whether he would have
admitted it or not.

What's the difference between what the telemarketers are allegedly doing and
what certain advertisers in respectable numismatic publications are doing
with their hype and overgrading? Or what the guys are doing when they
crackout time after time after time, seeking to maximize the slab grade of a
given coin? In my view, ignorance and greed are the mechanisms by which
people are separated from their money. My concept of human nature prevents
me from believing that either of those human frailties will be remedied any
time soon. Education might be the antidote for the ignorance, but how can
we deliver it to one who may not want it? And greed, well, we've been
working on that one, too, for a long time without any progress. I feel
sorry for the victim, but something tells me that he would not have
appreciated someone's attempt to intervene as he was buying up the coins.
And I feel sorry for you, Wes, that you had to be the bearer of the bad
news.

James
'call me a pessimist, call me a realist'

"James Higby" heezerbumfrool[at]hotmail[dot]com wrote in message
...

"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message news:eU5Rd.2471
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and the
MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally drained from
his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought these from a
telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just lost $200,000+ to
some scumbag telemarketer

I like to think that I know what I'm doing in the collecting of coins. But if I'm
honest about it, I know that I will likely lose money overall, as I love the coins
for what they are, not for what financial return I might realize. They satisfy
some primitive, deep-seated need within me, and many of my fellow collectors will
know what I'm talking about. This may have been a factor in this gentleman's
collection-building, whether he would have admitted it or not.

What's the difference between what the telemarketers are allegedly doing and what
certain advertisers in respectable numismatic publications are doing with their
hype and overgrading? Or what the guys are doing when they crackout time after
time after time, seeking to maximize the slab grade of a given coin? In my view,
ignorance and greed are the mechanisms by which people are separated from their
money. My concept of human nature prevents me from believing that either of those
human frailties will be remedied any time soon. Education might be the antidote
for the ignorance, but how can we deliver it to one who may not want it? And
greed, well, we've been working on that one, too, for a long time without any
progress. I feel sorry for the victim, but something tells me that he would not
have appreciated someone's attempt to intervene as he was buying up the coins. And
I feel sorry for you, Wes, that you had to be the bearer of the bad news.

James
'call me a pessimist, call me a realist'



I sell enough coins to know just exactly how much of an investment
potential most of my choices in collecting are. None to very little.
I choose to collect what I collect anyway for the fun of it.

I hate stories like this where someone made a stupid decision
and got ripped off big time. What was he thinking? He wasn't and it is a real
shame.

It happens all the time but that doesn't make it acceptable.

Dale

The FTC needs to put the clamps down on these other grading services. This
NTC garbage has to stop, there are other grading companies that grade in
similar ways that are just as dangerous.




"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message
ink.net...
During the past couple of weeks I've had a few phone conversation with an
elderly man who was thinking of selling his collection of Morgan dollars
and Gold coins. He faxed me a list of about 80 coins that he had bought
over the last year, along with what he paid for them (close to $225,000).
I started to have a real sick feeling about this and asked him if he would
mind bringing in a few of the coins so I could look at them and give him a
better idea of what we could do for him.

He brought in 8 Morgan dollars, all graded by NTC. Here is what they are
and what he paid:

1879 S MS-67 $750
1880 S MS-66 $600
1881 O MS-66 $1800
1884 O MS-66 $800
1899 S MS-64 $900
1901 O MS-66 $1500
1921 MS-66 $1200
1921 S MS-66 $13000

I knew that at best, this was not going to be pretty, and at worst it
might be a coronary in the store. I asked him if he could leave them with
me for a couple of hours while I brought up recent auction history and
price guides.

When he returned, I explained that he was sold coins using the PCGS price
list for coins certified by a "3rd tier" grading company. I had printed
out recent eBay auctions with some of the exact coins in NTC holders and
showed him that the prices realized were 10% of what he had paid.

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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I ask, what good is the ANA if they are not screaming to the FTC and
congress to put a stop to this madness?

Brian


"Wes Chormicle" wrote in message
ink.net...
During the past couple of weeks I've had a few phone conversation with an
elderly man who was thinking of selling his collection of Morgan dollars
and Gold coins. He faxed me a list of about 80 coins that he had bought
over the last year, along with what he paid for them (close to $225,000).
I started to have a real sick feeling about this and asked him if he would
mind bringing in a few of the coins so I could look at them and give him a
better idea of what we could do for him.

He brought in 8 Morgan dollars, all graded by NTC. Here is what they are
and what he paid:

1879 S MS-67 $750
1880 S MS-66 $600
1881 O MS-66 $1800
1884 O MS-66 $800
1899 S MS-64 $900
1901 O MS-66 $1500
1921 MS-66 $1200
1921 S MS-66 $13000

I knew that at best, this was not going to be pretty, and at worst it
might be a coronary in the store. I asked him if he could leave them with
me for a couple of hours while I brought up recent auction history and
price guides.

When he returned, I explained that he was sold coins using the PCGS price
list for coins certified by a "3rd tier" grading company. I had printed
out recent eBay auctions with some of the exact coins in NTC holders and
showed him that the prices realized were 10% of what he had paid.

When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points, and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had just
lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.813 / Virus Database: 553 - Release Date: 12/13/2004

Wes Chormicle wrote:
Here was an 80
year old man who had just lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

Ouch. 'Twere me, I'd be looking up lawyers. $200,000 is worth going
after and taking down the scumbags.

--
Bob

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 20:40:13 GMT, "Brian Maguire"
wrote:

The FTC needs to put the clamps down on these other grading services. This
NTC garbage has to stop, there are other grading companies that grade in
similar ways that are just as dangerous.

Well said. There are too many new services. I ran across one company
(NNC) a few days ago that charges based on the cost of the coin. The
more expensive the coin value that is declared for insurance purpose,
the higher the charge to grade the coin. I saw this as a potential
conflict of interest. I wonder if there is anyone policing all the
grading companies. Soon we'll have dealers opening their own services
so they can "objectively" grade their own coins.

The story of the older gentleman made me very sad. I know a small
fraction of the pain he feels, since I (and probably many of us) have
been in the same boat before, though not to such an extent. Wish we
could go back to the old days and find the telemarketing firm so we
could tar and feather anyone involved. The image makes me feel a bit
better about what happened to the gentleman.

Anita

In article . net,
"Wes Chormicle" wrote:

[snip]
When I looked at these coins, every one of them was at least 3 points,
and
the MS-67 5 points higher then the coin really was. The color
literally
drained from his face. He then proceeded to tell me that he had
brought
these from a telemarketing firm. Here was an 80 year old man who had
just lost $200,000+ to some scumbag telemarketer.

Did you ask him why he spend a quarter million on an
"investment" he knew absolutely nothing about? Did
he also have some magic beans for you to appraise?

--
Ken Barr Numismatics
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 (souvenir cards, MPC, Hickey Bros tokens)
408-272-3247 Next show: Cupertino Coin Club 02/20 (no table)
ADVANCED NOTICE: ANA World's Fair of Money, San Francisco, CA 7/27-31/2005