SAE toning experiment update

In article ,
Bruce Hickmott wrote:

In Nov 2000, I saw a 2000 SAE toned just like that in a PCGS slab. Dunno who
submitted it, but how could PCGS realistically believe that the coin could
tone
naturally like that in 6 months or less!


What's not natural about it?

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:07:03 -0700, Scot Kamins is
alleged to have written:

In article ,
Bruce Hickmott wrote:

In Nov 2000, I saw a 2000 SAE toned just like that in a PCGS slab. Dunno who
submitted it, but how could PCGS realistically believe that the coin could
tone
naturally like that in 6 months or less!


What's not natural about it?

Scot Kamins

Well, the amount of time involved. The coin in question was less than a year old
at the time and toned like Crysta's or maybe a little brighter. To my mind, that
makes a slamdunk that the coin was helped intentionally. Either that, or the
prior owner lived on a volcano!

Look at some of Eric's coins, that bag toning took decades to develop. Ditto the
roll toning.

But by definition, the toning on the SAE is natural because it slabbed.

Bruce (Doesn't like the definition, but that seems how it works)

In article ,
Bruce Hickmott wrote:

But by definition, the toning on the SAE is natural because it slabbed.

So the logic is:

[Axiom] The top tier slabbing services always (or nearly always) know
the difference between natural and aided toning.

[Major premise] Top tier slabbing services slab only naturally toned
coins.

[minor premise] The coin in question was slabbed by a top tier slabbing
service.

[Conclusion] Therefore the toning on the coin is natural.

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

Bruce Hickmott spoke thusly...

But by definition, the toning on the SAE is natural because it slabbed.

Bruce (Doesn't like the definition, but that seems how it works)

I have seen the term "Market Acceptable" used for toned coins in slabs
quite bit. Maybe it developed because others didn't like the definition
either?


--
Stujoe

Chrysta Wilson spoke thusly...
You probably don't remember, but I posted about a silver SAE that I put
in an ordinary mailing envelope in early March of 2003. I posted some
photos here as it started to tone to an all-over deep gold/light russet.
I think this was probably in November.

http://chrystawilson.com/saeexperiment.html

I took it out today to to take more pictures. Wow! I am impressed, if I
do say so myself...and I don't remember what kind of envelope it was, or
anything like that...probably just el cheapo envelopes purchased at
Staples or a drugstore or something, kept on a bookshelf in one of our
bedrooms.

http://chrystawilson.com/saeexp2.html

You like? )

Thinking about getting some more SAEs!

That is a gorgeous coin! Not hard to see why there are so many toned
SAE's out there!

--
Stujoe

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 11:31:17 -0400, Chrysta Wilson
wrote:

You probably don't remember, but I posted about a silver SAE that I put
in an ordinary mailing envelope in early March of 2003. I posted some
photos here as it started to tone to an all-over deep gold/light russet.
I think this was probably in November.

http://chrystawilson.com/saeexperiment.html

I took it out today to to take more pictures. Wow! I am impressed, if I
do say so myself...and I don't remember what kind of envelope it was, or
anything like that...probably just el cheapo envelopes purchased at
Staples or a drugstore or something, kept on a bookshelf in one of our
bedrooms.

http://chrystawilson.com/saeexp2.html

You like? )

Thinking about getting some more SAEs!

They look AWESOME!! But is this considered AT or NT ??

Gary

On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 13:28:43 -0700, Scot Kamins is
alleged to have written:

In article ,
Bruce Hickmott wrote:

But by definition, the toning on the SAE is natural because it slabbed.

So the logic is:

[Axiom] The top tier slabbing services always (or nearly always) know
the difference between natural and aided toning.

[Major premise] Top tier slabbing services slab only naturally toned
coins.

[minor premise] The coin in question was slabbed by a top tier slabbing
service.

[Conclusion] Therefore the toning on the coin is natural.

Scot Kamins

well, that's the reasoning process...dunno that I'd go so far as to call it
"logic".

Bruce

In article , Bruce Hickmott
writes:


In Nov 2000, I saw a 2000 SAE toned just like that in a PCGS slab. Dunno who
submitted it, but how could PCGS realistically believe that the coin could
tone
naturally like that in 6 months or less!

MS69, IIR.

Bruce

Why do you think that toning that takes place in 6 months is any less natural
than that which takes place in 60 years? The fact is, it's toned. It's
natural in that elements in a container caused it to change color over time.
Whether that color change is caused by a bag or an envelope seem immaterial to
me...and may impossible to discern in many cases.

IF PCGS refuses to slab such a coin, it points up even more conclusively that
the whole issue of color on toned coins is capricious and controllable by a
powerful slabbing company to the point where any thinking person should never
even consider investing in them. They're like baseball cards beany babies,
tulip bulbs beer cans, etc. able to be remanufactured to fit demand whenever
the price dictates. That's the problem with slabbing. THEY determine the
rarity of the item and THEY have first say-so in what the item will be worth.
NO ONE can legally make a rare coin from 100 years ago...but any slabbing
company has the power and market approval to generate any number of "rarities"
that only they can produce...and there's nothing illegal about it! This is
true of "grade rarities" as well as toned coins and probably several other
categories I'm not thinking of right now.

Once you grant implied permission for someone to tell you what is rare and
acceptable and what is not rare and unacceptable, you might as well give him
your wallet, too. Unfortunately, that's what the overwhelming control of the
grading of coins is gradually producing. As long as the "upper tier" grading
companies keep their greed under control and don't get too arrogant, they'll be
able to line their purses with collector money indefinitely. It's the more
outrageous outbursts (such as PCGS's recent embarassment over NCG's "purchase"
of favor) and the abuses of lower tier grading services (which seem to be
proliferating lately) that will eventually lead to grading companies downfall.

I'd be very interested in what PCGS opines on Chrysta's coin. If they bodybag
it, they're making a mistake...but the temptation of controling the market of
$8 coins-turned-into-$200-ebay-auctions may be too great.

Dondi3
Dondi3



DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.

In article ,
says...

"Chrysta Wilson" wrote in message
ews.com...

But with an 8 dollar eagle, I was willing to take the chance!


So, what exactly did you do? You just placed the coin in a normal envelope
for several months? Not like I want to try something similar or anything

Yes, but nothing happened to it in several months, just a little gold on
the edges...but then it started to tone pretty fast. It's been in there
since March of '03.
--
~Chrysta~

Chrysta Wilson wrote in
ews.com:

snip

http://chrystawilson.com/saeexp2.html

You like? )

Thinking about getting some more SAEs!
--
~Chrysta~


Needs a bath. ;o)

Impressive change since Nov.