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#1
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LP/8 track comparison
I just got a minty copy of Santana's Abraxas album on an early '70s
TC8. When I opened it up, it was obvious that the tape inside wasn't the usual Scotch, but rather, more like Ampex 381. Other than that, it was a pretty normal TC8. After my usual treatment with PTFE and a new Win-Gibber, I took it in the car with me to go run a few errands. It sounded great...probably one of the best prerecorded 8 tracks I have. So, when I got home, I did an A/B comparison with the LP on the big system, knowing that I have a good 8 track copy with which to compare. The differences quickly became obvious; the 8 track was definitely deliberately compressed, obviously to make it sound better in the car...the old "loudness" game played for decades by radio broadcasters. Of course, this was a pre-Dolby copy, so tape hiss was quite evident everywhere, but the healthy dose of compression did a lot to cover it up. OK, just how much compression did they use? I patched in my trusty UREI compressor and ran a dub of the LP onto RTR at 15 IPS, trying various compression thresholds and rates. Result? 8 tracks are about as compressed as average commercial FM radio programming...which is a LOT...about 15 dB's worth. Thus, peaks aren't any different, since LP mastering generally uses a limiter anyway, but the "quiet" stuff on the 8 track is up around the ears of the vocals in typical FM radio fashion. So, I dubbed a copy of the LP onto a Scotch blank with no compression, and went out in the car. Sounded pretty good, except a lot of detail was lost in the tape hiss. Once you start the engine and start moving, though, you lose a LOT of material. So, back home, I dubbed another copy, this time using about 15 dB of compression with the UREI. Into the car it went, and I got essentially the same thing as the prerecorded dupe...sounds "louder" due to all that compression. Sound "better?" No, not to the cultured ear; all the dynamics of the LP are gone, replaced by basically "pink noise." I also must add that the home deck isn't capable of the kind of bass fluxivity that those old Ampex dupe decks could deliver, either. A commercially recorded 8 track hits the tape harder than any home deck could, probably all in the name of also "sounding louder in the car," which is why they added all that compression in the first place, and a primary reason I like Ampex 381 and other "hot" tapes as a "car tape." Lots of kids today are into this new "hyper-reality" method of mastering, which I opine is another pseudonym for "over compression." This simple test proved that it's the same thing...all these kids are today are doing is compressing the crap out of everything on their CD masters just like the labels did on 8 track and like the broadcasters still do on both AM and FM. However, once you get into the reality of car audio (I mean SANE car audio; not these 1000 watt lunacy installations the hip-hoppers are into now) you realize that without all the compression, you don't hear anything except the vocals and the top end. This, of course, varies from car to car; my Cadillac was quiet enough inside on the road to take advantage of "real" fidelity, whereas the typical beater is simply too noisy an environment in which to enjoy it. The extreme of this was the VW diesel; I didn't even bother putting ANY system in that, since I could barely hear the radio anyway. Such is the price for 56 MPG! However, the new VW diesels are very quiet in comparison. Too bad VW has such a lousy reputation, or I'd buy one today. Biggest VW problems: electrical failures and parts availability...REALLY bad. Anyway, the assertion that was made in "SWTR" by the guy that cleaned out a warehouse in Lancaster for 4 and 8 tracks that the 8 track has the same "credentials" as an LP release is definitely false, as the fidelity is compromised by heavy compression to make the 8 track suitable for car use. If you want "fidelity," you simply have to go for the LP or CD, and even then, the signal's been messed with considerably at the mastering stage. One thing that's really ****ing me off about CDs these days..."hyper clipping," even on re-releases of classic rock and pop. For years now, bands come into studios and demand that they "be as loud as these guys" as they wave a current release from a band from a major label. Just how are some of these mastering rooms making these CDs "loud?" They drive the audio level up into clipping on peaks, which sounds gawdawful, but the uneducated ear thinks it means it's "louder." (Remember Spinal Taps' "our amps go to 11?" This is the CD equivalent.) It's happening, as I said, even on re-releases that have been remastered from the '80s and '90s first releases. Rip some tracks and put them in an editor, and you can see bass and drum peaks clipped all to hell, all in the name of making the CD sound louder. It seems they exploited all the compression that the listener would allow, so now this is the latest wrinkle in perceived "loudness"...adding the horrid distortion of clipping! In the hip-hop world, people aren't smart enough to know the difference, and just like the head numbing effect of all that crap played at hypersonic levels, anyway. But to clip Zeppelin or Yes? Sacrilege! Of course, a fidelity conscious artist or group, like Steely Dan, would NEVER allow this, and a look at their latest CD remasters shows this quite plainly. The same goes for classical or jazz; a mastering tech who clips a classical rerelease will be looking for a new job soon, no doubt. So, there's a dichotomy in 8 track..."noise" for the car vis ą vis fidelity at home. The 8 track became someone annoying at home after listening awhile on the JBL monitors...no dynamic contrast, just lots of noise. The LP sounded much better, "better" in this context being what the listener would perceive as being there in the studio when the tracks were recorded. Of course, since the dawn of the multi-tracking age of recording in the mid '60s, such a witnessing would never happen, as albums were cut in studios all over the country...drum tracks here, vocals there, backups somewhere else...a bit of a fraud, actually. Ever vocalists on 8 track were compressed heavily; I have copies in both formats for some Tony Bennett releases, and the 8 track contains a bigger dose of compression than the LPs, although Columbia, for reasons lost to me, seems to like to compress their vocalists' band and orchestral tracks a LOT anyway. Conclusion: 8 track is, and always was, a "car format." If your looking for fidelity, get a near mint copy of the LP or a late '80s or '90s CD rerelease. If your looking for something to bop along in the car with, or on a "spaceball," 8 track's fine...IF you like FM radio, too. For a lousy system at home, like the crappy "all-in-one" things sold by NudoFraud® Industries, 8 track's also the way to go over LP, since the cheap turntables on those thing grind up a good LP in a scant few passes. dB |
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#2
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8-track is also good for quad, where it has much over the quad lps. One
thing about compression besides 8-track, is that it pushes up quiet bits while stifling extreme peaks, great for car noise or bar noise, or for inferior equipment that just can't do a whole lot. While compression kinda sux on a serious rig, for a loud bar or a loud car it's an absolute necessity! ....and yeah, Columbia did compress the hell out of their vocalists from the late 50s till the late 60s did they not? ) Both methods seem sensible to me. I just got a brand new xterra with cd and when I played beethoven moonlight sonata on cd, you had to crank it to 24 (out of 32) just to -barely- hear it! The car is super quiet too, nice japan construction super tight and secure, if not top of the line )) |
#3
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....one more thing, I don't know if Columbia is systemic to compression
of 8s in general. Perhaps another label may be a different story? Here's one for you to try if you can.....find a stereo pressing of Beatles '65 and compare it to the black shell 8. I think in many ways the 8 sounds better, except of course in its muddier high end. |
#4
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8-Tracks RULE over any other form of media. 'Nuff Said!
Danno Rex..the French King Of The 8-Track World! lennon fan wrote: ...one more thing, I don't know if Columbia is systemic to compression of 8s in general. Perhaps another label may be a different story? Here's one for you to try if you can.....find a stereo pressing of Beatles '65 and compare it to the black shell 8. I think in many ways the 8 sounds better, except of course in its muddier high end. -- Daniel and Kathy Gibson http://www.katestrackshack.com "Kate's Track Shack -Your Internet Home For Inexpensive 8-tracks!!" AND... http://drnooseandjambone.com "DrNoose And Jambone - Do It To The Optigan!" |
#5
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Yodedude2 wrote: 8-Tracks RULE over any other form of media. 'Nuff Said! They're definitely more fun than LPs. later, ron Yeah! Ever tried to fix an LP? I put splicing tape all over one, and it did not sound any better. Go figure! Dan - PhD in General Knowledge. -- Daniel and Kathy Gibson http://www.katestrackshack.com "Kate's Track Shack -Your Internet Home For Inexpensive 8-tracks!!" AND... http://drnooseandjambone.com "DrNoose And Jambone - Do It To The Optigan!" |
#6
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#7
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On Sat, 11 Dec 2004 23:58:09 GMT, Daniel & Kathy Gibson
wrote: 8-Tracks RULE over any other form of media. 'Nuff Said! Danno Rex..the French King Of The 8-Track World! snip ROTFL! Can the French King send the French Frauder to la guillotine? S'IL VOUS PLAIT???? Merci! dB |
#8
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#9
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On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:25:01 GMT, Daniel & Kathy Gibson
wrote: Yeah! Ever tried to fix an LP? I put splicing tape all over one, and it did not sound any better. Go figure! snip Maybe you had the tape on the wrong side??? dB |
#10
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DeserTBoB wrote: On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 00:25:01 GMT, Daniel & Kathy Gibson wrote: Yeah! Ever tried to fix an LP? I put splicing tape all over one, and it did not sound any better. Go figure! snip Maybe you had the tape on the wrong side??? dB I don't think so. The problems really seemed to arise when I put the LP into a cartridge. -- Daniel and Kathy Gibson http://www.katestrackshack.com "Kate's Track Shack -Your Internet Home For Inexpensive 8-tracks!!" AND... http://drnooseandjambone.com "DrNoose And Jambone - Do It To The Optigan!" |
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