A Philatelic Debate

Tracy Barber wrote:

Tom Loepp wrote:

Okay,

snip

Appropriate... :^P

In the ":^P" thing I know what two of the symbols are called so I've decided to call
the "^" an "osco".

Gum is overrated. Period.

The catalogues have made "hinged" into a dirty word.

USPS is for MOVING MAIL. It is NOT a social club, nor should it be.
It's upposed to cater to the mail, but seems to cater to the whims of
deep pocket or special interest lobbyists to get their stamp(s)
printed.

USPS should print less stamps, but more appropriate stamps - like they
used to do before the "fad" became the standard.

Fine by me. I'm all growed up and collecting used classical.

CTOs are remainders, or at least should be. This was the original
intent of the offereings. Once the stamp was removed from sale, for
whatever reason, the stamps were marked and then sold at a discount.

What seems to happen now, is that CTOs are printed alongside mint,
unused stamps and that is a b_st__d_za_ion of the CTO process.

I forgot about all my "printed" CTOs... thanks for reminding me.

I am happy to have some older North Borneo, Labuam, Liberia and
Spanish remainders in my collection.

I probably have enough to choke a dog.

Eventually, someone HAS to bit the bullet, take the bull by the horns,
and invest a little more than rhetoric speak to get prices up to where
they "should be". Or down, for that matter.

I am going to invest in the undervalued rarities, sounds like a bull market.

BTW, Tom, stop whimpering! :^P

I just watched a tear-jerker movie.. can't help it..sniff. HOOONNKK!

-- TL

TLB

Tracy Barber

Oh ya?.... TRL
Hah!
-- Tom Loepp

Email:
Website: http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/tom/

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 01:25:34 GMT, Tom Loepp
wrote:



Tracy Barber wrote:

Tom Loepp wrote:

Okay,

snip

Appropriate... :^P

In the ":^P" thing I know what two of the symbols are called so I've decided to call
the "^" an "osco".

--- :^P

Gum is overrated. Period.

The catalogues have made "hinged" into a dirty word.

Gum is overrated. Period. I do agree that catalogs have helped the
public in it's opinion of 'hinged".

USPS is for MOVING MAIL. It is NOT a social club, nor should it be.
It's upposed to cater to the mail, but seems to cater to the whims of
deep pocket or special interest lobbyists to get their stamp(s)
printed.

USPS should print less stamps, but more appropriate stamps - like they
used to do before the "fad" became the standard.

Fine by me. I'm all growed up and collecting used classical.

Pianos, records, hmmm...?

CTOs are remainders, or at least should be. This was the original
intent of the offereings. Once the stamp was removed from sale, for
whatever reason, the stamps were marked and then sold at a discount.

What seems to happen now, is that CTOs are printed alongside mint,
unused stamps and that is a b_st__d_za_ion of the CTO process.

I forgot about all my "printed" CTOs... thanks for reminding me.

Gotcha boss!

I am happy to have some older North Borneo, Labuam, Liberia and
Spanish remainders in my collection.

I probably have enough to choke a dog.

My cats would love them. E-mail me off-line and I'll arrange a U-Haul
to pick them up.

Eventually, someone HAS to bit the bullet, take the bull by the horns,
and invest a little more than rhetoric speak to get prices up to where
they "should be". Or down, for that matter.

I am going to invest in the undervalued rarities, sounds like a bull market.

Moo!

BTW, Tom, stop whimpering! :^P

I just watched a tear-jerker movie.. can't help it..sniff. HOOONNKK!

Afrin may clear up those sinus issues.

-- TL

TLB

Tracy Barber

Oh ya?.... TRL
Hah!

MTGLTALTY

--- :^P

Tracy Barber

| Gum is overrated. Period.

When I begin to see major works of art, Picasso, Caravaggio,
Groenig, etc presented with gum on the back of the canvas,
then I may be persuaded to rethink.
Gum is Gooey, Period.

2/25/2004 8:46 PM

| Gum is overrated. Period.

When I begin to see major works of art, Picasso, Caravaggio,
Groenig, etc presented with gum on the back of the canvas,
then I may be persuaded to rethink.
Gum is Gooey, Period.

I just got home from the B.C. Phil meeting and the "Great Philatelic
Debate." I've been a member for two years, and this was absolutely the best
meeting of them all. I've only missed a couple of our weekly meetings, so
that means the it was the best of about 75 meetings!

We had normal attendance, about 20, and enthusiastic participation. We
debated only four of the 10 possible topics. There seemed to be a lot of
enthusiasm to continue the debate at the next opportunity.

One comment above all stood out, during the debate about the questionable
practice of MNH pricing. Norman S., who is a young financial advisor, argued
persuasively that such pricing sets a benchmark for a particular stamp
issue. Only the MNH VF stamp is unarguably the "best" example of that issue.
He argued that all other copies of the same stamp -- hinged mint stamps and
all used stamps -- are necessarily evaluated subjectively. He also
suggested that the collectors who buy such stamps are largely responsible
for the economic success of stamp collecting. Without them, and without
never-hinged stamps, stamp collecting would be much less healthy as a hobby.
I have to agree with him. It really must be the "big spenders" who keep
stamp dealers in business, and allow them to sell to "little spenders" like
most of us.

Peter J., another member, pointed out that one "mint never hinged" Canadian
Centennial stamp variety would become as common as dirt if the gum were
washed off: it was gummed on the face!

We also debated the value of CTO stamps. In a vote at the end, 10 people
voted for the proposition that CTO's are collectible and do not deserve
their bad reputation, and have a place especially in the hands of children
and other beginning collectors. Fritz G. pointed out that the Swiss post
office sells cancelled, gummed stamps over the counter. They aren't
precancels -- they are "favor cancelled" in advance. Fritz said that he once
was criticized in an exhibit for including some of these "CTO's," as the
judge called them. Since they aren't produced in huge quantities like
ordinary CTO's, and they aren't produced one-by-one like favor-cancelled
stamps are, what the heck *would* you call them?

The third debate involved the statement that stamp exhibiting rules are too
restrictive. Club members agreed overwhelmingly. Many people said they would
like to see a relaxing of formal exhibiting so that the non-collecting
public might begin to see how collecting could become a part of their lives.

Overall, it was a great evening. I wish you could have been there!

Bob Ingraham

-------
Keep up to date at the B.C. Philatelic Society web site:
http://www.bcphilatelic.org.
-------

Debatable Statement 1: postal administrations should issue more stamps
in a greater variety

Horrors! We are swamped enough already.


Debatable Statement 2: Stamp collectors should stop collecting gum.
Dealers
should not charge premiums for unhinged stamps, and there should be no
difference in price between mint and unused stamps.


Disagree on all three counts. 1) As long as stamps are gummed, there will be
interest in MNH collecting. It's an individual preference. 2) Why
shouldn't there be a premium for never hinged? Brand new cars cost more
than used. 3) *Slightly* used is still not brand new.


Debatable Statement 3: Mint stamps are nothing more than pretty labels.
For
a stamp to be collectible, it should be used, and the best way to collect
used stamps is on cover.

Personal preference.



Debatable Statement 4: The internet is the best thing ever to happen to
stamp collecting. Stamp shops should close their doors and start selling
only on the internet.


Internet has opened up tremendous new avenues for collecting. But stores
and bourses are equally important. I hope all continue to do well.


Debatable Statement 5: Kids aren't interested in stamps. So what? Stamp
collecting is an adult hobby.


We have many more choices and opportunities to consider when deciding how to
fill our free time today than we did years ago. A zillion different cable
and satellite channels to choose from, a zillion different websites to
explore, a zillion different sports-related activities to pursue. You can't
*make* anyone---kid or adult---be interested in something. You offer them a
plate, let them sample, let them see what you like to do (hopefully it
includes stamps), and try to plant seeds---some of which sprout immediately,
some of which may sprout later, some of which will never sprout. Stamps are
a hobby for all. Whether all participate is still individual preference.
Wouldn't be any fun if we were all *forced* to participate.



Debatable Statement 6: Cancelled to Order stamps (CTO's) are stamps too,
and
don't deserve their bad reputation.


Agree, even though I don't personally care a great deal for them.



Debatable Statement 7: Postage stamp catalogues should be for postage
stamps
only, not revenue stamps, duck stamps or other hunting permit stamps, or
any
other stamp not intended for postal use.


I like the combined format of Scott Specialized U.S, and would hate to have
to buy a whole bunch of different catalogs to get the same information.



Debatable Statement 8: Collectors should ignore catalogue values because
they are arbitrary and they reflect nothing at all. Why else do dealers
almost universally sell stamps at varying fractions of catalogue values.
Catalogues should reflect not prices of stamps, but rarity factors.


Not sure which dealers sell at "fractions" of catalog value. Most shows
I've gone to have dealers selling at full catalog. A few give a 5% discount
if you buy a significant amount from them. Catalog values are still only a
guide, but I've yet to find a better measuring stick to use.




Debatable Statement 9: The criteria for displaying in a stamp show are too
strict. Why should judges get to decide beforehand what is included in an
exhibit? If standards were relaxed, a great many more collectors would
exhibit, and the hobby of stamp collecting would benefit.


I have never exhibited, but from what I've read, I get the impression the
standards are pretty stuffy, lock out many potential exhibitors, and
definitely should be revised.

Mike

| One comment above all stood out, during the debate about the questionable
| practice of MNH pricing. Norman S., who is a young financial advisor, argued
| persuasively that such pricing sets a benchmark for a particular stamp
| issue. Only the MNH VF stamp is unarguably the "best" example of that issue.

Hmmm, that's a reasonable argument Bob,
I guess my feeling tends towards whether collecting gummed issues
is "good practice".
For the rank and file, who keep their issues in average album,
on the top shelf of the office at home, who use them constantly
to appreciate and work with, I can find no sense in the practice.

For the wealthy, the specialist with the humidity controlled environment
and the investor, certainly, I can see the obvious advantages.
Looks like the status quo, is spot on.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:46:30 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

| Gum is overrated. Period.

When I begin to see major works of art, Picasso, Caravaggio,
Groenig, etc presented with gum on the back of the canvas,
then I may be persuaded to rethink.
Gum is Gooey, Period.

Some gum is truly nasty wasty rasser frasser tttppth yellow belly
sapsucking rotten.

Some gum is easy to work with and washes off nice and clean.

Gum is a "variety", like perforations and lately "die cuts".

Now people are talking about collecting the backs of self-adhesives
for the different die cuts.

This is all fine and dandy, for those who partake. Since I'm not a
100% completist, but do my best, it doesn't matter. Gum is something,
that when disturbed, will be washed.

I'd rather have a clean stamp that won't bend, curl, pop, crackle,
fizz then one that would. Just my opinion, all $ .02 (USD) of it.

Tracy Barber

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 06:50:56 GMT, Bob Ingraham
wrote:

I just got home from the B.C. Phil meeting and the "Great Philatelic
Debate." I've been a member for two years, and this was absolutely the best
meeting of them all. I've only missed a couple of our weekly meetings, so
that means the it was the best of about 75 meetings!

Cee-gar time, boB !!!

We had normal attendance, about 20, and enthusiastic participation. We
debated only four of the 10 possible topics. There seemed to be a lot of
enthusiasm to continue the debate at the next opportunity.

Excellent, excellent...

One comment above all stood out, during the debate about the questionable
practice of MNH pricing. Norman S., who is a young financial advisor, argued
persuasively that such pricing sets a benchmark for a particular stamp
issue. Only the MNH VF stamp is unarguably the "best" example of that issue.

Why not a VF / XF unused copy, if gum were not different? For
instance, local gum / tropical gum. If there were no differences in
the gum, there should be no differences in the stamp - technically.

He argued that all other copies of the same stamp -- hinged mint stamps and
all used stamps -- are necessarily evaluated subjectively.

That's pretty much how it's been done for ages.

He also
suggested that the collectors who buy such stamps are largely responsible
for the economic success of stamp collecting. Without them, and without
never-hinged stamps, stamp collecting would be much less healthy as a hobby.

Eh? Explain, please...

I have to agree with him. It really must be the "big spenders" who keep
stamp dealers in business, and allow them to sell to "little spenders" like
most of us.

Big bucks pay the bills, while little bucks sell the frills...

Peter J., another member, pointed out that one "mint never hinged" Canadian
Centennial stamp variety would become as common as dirt if the gum were
washed off: it was gummed on the face!

hehehehe... a few others, WW, have been like that. Not only that, but
some have print on both sides and when you soak, you lose the printing
on the backside.

We also debated the value of CTO stamps. In a vote at the end, 10 people
voted for the proposition that CTO's are collectible and do not deserve
their bad reputation, and have a place especially in the hands of children
and other beginning collectors. Fritz G. pointed out that the Swiss post
office sells cancelled, gummed stamps over the counter. They aren't
precancels -- they are "favor cancelled" in advance. Fritz said that he once
was criticized in an exhibit for including some of these "CTO's," as the
judge called them. Since they aren't produced in huge quantities like
ordinary CTO's, and they aren't produced one-by-one like favor-cancelled
stamps are, what the heck *would* you call them?

CTO. Like they are. They are not favor cancelled, at the counter.
They are favor canceled, pre-PO, by the swiss PO, no?

The third debate involved the statement that stamp exhibiting rules are too
restrictive. Club members agreed overwhelmingly. Many people said they would
like to see a relaxing of formal exhibiting so that the non-collecting
public might begin to see how collecting could become a part of their lives.

Yes - instead of some of the "good old boy" network, allow some fresh
faces, no? Let's face it. There's "good old boy" 'tudes all over the
place and many are not eager to change. Change, sometimes, is good.

Overall, it was a great evening. I wish you could have been there!

Cues "Wish you Were Here" by Pink Floyd. "Come in here dear boy, have
a cigar, you're gonna go far..."

Thanks boB for the reporting! Must have been a good debate.

Tracy Barber

Rodney,
Glue* (in this case it may be rabbit skin glue) might be on
the back of a canvas but would mean that too much was put on
the front of the canvas and it soaked through, not good
technique. Glue should be put on the front just enough to
prevent acidic oil from getting to the linen and destroying it.
The purpose of the glue other than being a protein barrier for
acid is water soluble and can be the release layer between the
paint/ground and the linen. The paint surface is glued to paper
on a stone slab to stabilize it and the old linen is removed.
The paint is then put on a new stretched linen/glue/ground
surface. Art collectors can be as fussy about whether
conservators (or in the old days, restorers) have had their
hands on a work of art. Art conservation has gotten much better
than in the past when much damage was done to paintings. Damar
resin or gum is also used in a mixture with beeswax and venice
turpentine (another sap or gum) to make repairs to the backs of
canvases, so it is not impossible to have gum on the back of a
masterpiece. Formaldehyde can also be found on the backs of art
to prevent rot. Copal, mastic (one of the most gooey), and
other resins are used in paint mediums.
Art is scrutinized for it's history in terms of in-painting,
restoration, preservation, and conservation and it becomes part
of it's history, good or bad. Art has all of the enemies
(adverse elements) that stamps have.

*Gum or glue, maybe the same or they could be two different
things. Gum may be somewhat of a misnomer in philatelic terms
as there are water-soluble gums (resins, gum arabic) but most
likely what is on stamps is a glue, a water-soluble protein, I
will defer on this point to someone who might know the recipe.
Resins or gums could be glues and visa versa, I don't know, in
art terms they are categorized separately for the most part or
gums are just a sub category of glues.

Rodney wrote:

| Gum is overrated. Period.

When I begin to see major works of art, Picasso, Caravaggio,
Groenig, etc presented with gum on the back of the canvas,
then I may be persuaded to rethink.
Gum is Gooey, Period.

-- Tom Loepp
Email:
Website: http://loepp.home.mindspring.com/tom/

2/26/2004 8:08 AM

Only the MNH VF stamp is unarguably the "best" example of that issue.

Tracy wrote: "Why not a VF / XF unused copy, if gum were not different?"

VF centered stamps are "common," while XF centered stamps are so uncommon as
to be rare, especially on older and classic issues. Once again, I see
Norman's point that VF MNH stamps can be used a benchmark against which to
compare all other mint stamps, whether they are F, G, or XF.

In pondering the question more, it seems to that used stamps are far more
difficult to evaluate. I have a wonderful Jersey SON 1890's cancel on a
Victorian GB stamp. Most of the perfs are clipped off, but it's a treasured
part of my collection; with full perfs, it would probably be worth
considerably more than a mint NH copy of the stamp.
There are cancels, and then there are cancels, and they make all the
difference in used stamps.

Bob