What would you have done?

Little information about just what they did other than in one case it
mentioned that a dealer paid other dealers not to bid. That I can see being
illegal.

I wonder if any of the people deemed to have been injured by getting lower
prices for their material ever got any compensation?

"Phil DeMayo" wrote in message
...
"note.boy" wrote:

I would think that it would be near impossible prosecute collectors for
operating a bidding ring, i.e. agreeing not to bid against each other,
as obtaining proof would be difficult, but it might be easier against a
ring of dealers as a pattern may be easier to detect and prove.

Does anyone know of any prosecutions for operating bidding rings?

A search of the US Department of Justice website for "auction +collusion"
returned 178 hits. Here are several press releases regarding charges filed
in
cases of bidding rings in currency and stamp auctions:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/S...5/471.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...1996/475at.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/April95/196.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_363.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_372.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/April/02_at_228.htm

British stamp dealer charged in US:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/May/02_at_321.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/January/02_at_045.htm

I don't remember any in the UK but there may have been.

Earlier I tried a Google web search for "auction +collusion" and noticed a
number of UK based websites discussing the topic.



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

"Bob Peterson" wrote:

Little information about just what they did other than in one case it
mentioned that a dealer paid other dealers not to bid. That I can
see being illegal.

Did you actually read each of the press release Bob?

In each one the defendent was accused of conspiring with other dealers to not
bid against each other in either stamp or currency auctions. Each was charged
with violating Section One of the Sherman (antitrust) Act.

It's the organized and planned conspiracy that is illegal.


++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

I don't think its so much the prosecution for 'not' bidding that is the
issue-it would be proving the collusion without evidence.It would be almost
impossible to prove that two or more bidders agreed not to bid against
eachother verbally-without some kind of breakdown of the agreement
between the bidders.
Its like an unspoken agreement between all of us here not to bid against
eachother knowingly on e-bay-if I recognise a fellow rcc'er bidding on
something I want to bid on,I may place a bid,but I will also show some
consideration as far as not stepping on them.Not to say I haven't or won't
bid against any of you,but if your bidding on an item,and I recognise your
screen name,I will usually back off,as a courtesy.There's plenty of stuff
out there to bid on,I see no reason to create bad blood over some stupid
coin.Not to mention the financial stress it could create when your limited
in how far you can go in your bidding.
I don't know everyones screen name,and I'm sure I've bid against some of
you at one time or another,even intentionally-but I won't drive the price of
an item up just to spite anyone.
phil

Phil DeMayo wrote:

"note.boy" wrote:

I would think that it would be near impossible prosecute collectors for
operating a bidding ring, i.e. agreeing not to bid against each other,
as obtaining proof would be difficult, but it might be easier against a
ring of dealers as a pattern may be easier to detect and prove.

Does anyone know of any prosecutions for operating bidding rings?

A search of the US Department of Justice website for "auction +collusion"
returned 178 hits. Here are several press releases regarding charges filed in
cases of bidding rings in currency and stamp auctions:

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/S...5/471.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/pres...1996/475at.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/Pre_96/April95/196.txt.html

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_363.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/June/02_at_372.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/April/02_at_228.htm

British stamp dealer charged in US:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/May/02_at_321.htm

http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2002/January/02_at_045.htm

It does take a long time to gather evidence going by this quote from the
above link,

"The Department said the conspiracy took place from the early 1980s
until at least 1997 and for several months again in 1999."

Billy


I don't remember any in the UK but there may have been.

Earlier I tried a Google web search for "auction +collusion" and noticed a
number of UK based websites discussing the topic.

++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

I know of one occasion where a collector faxed bids to the auction house
but his bids were not processed, if they had been he would have won some
lots so the seller lost out on a higher price.

I suppose that buried in the small print is a get out clause for the
auction house. Billy


"Byron L. Reed" wrote:

On Sat, 1 Nov 2003 19:08:06 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

I think I just may. I can see no argument, simple or complex, that would
result in forcing someone to bid on something at an auction.

In a true bidding pool the each bidder has already stated his intended bid.
The law regards this as a legal bid even though it was off the floor. The
pool is acting as the agent of every member of the pool.

The same thing goes with legitimate bidder's agents. If an agent holds two
bids over the hammer price on the floor HE MUST inform the auctioneer of
this and adjust the hammer price upward to one increment higher than the
agent's penultimate bid.

BLReed

To email me click he http://tinyurl.com/nd66
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things: http://www.byronreed.com/byrons_collections/default.htm
Talk bust coins: http://www.byronreed.com/phpBB2/index.php

Byron L. Reed spoke thusly...
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:16:50 -0500, "phil" wrote:

Not to say I haven't or won't
bid against any of you,but if your bidding on an item,and I recognise your
screen name,I will usually back off,as a courtesy.

FYI, if we're both bidding on something I really want, you're dead meat.
Screw courtesy.

Heh, heh. I have zero problems bidding against rcc'ers. Since most of
the auctions I bid in are by rcc'ers, I end up outbidding and getting
outbid by (Hi Bill) mostly rcc'ers.

--
Stujoe
The Stujoe Collection: Coin Grading, News, Forums and more...
http://www.TheStujoeCollection.com/forums

okay.

Stujoe wrote:

Byron L. Reed spoke thusly...
On Sun, 2 Nov 2003 10:16:50 -0500, "phil" wrote:

Not to say I haven't or won't
bid against any of you,but if your bidding on an item,and I recognise your
screen name,I will usually back off,as a courtesy.

FYI, if we're both bidding on something I really want, you're dead meat.
Screw courtesy.

Heh, heh. I have zero problems bidding against rcc'ers. Since most of
the auctions I bid in are by rcc'ers, I end up outbidding and getting
outbid by (Hi Bill) mostly rcc'ers.


I think there was a brisk market in Tee-Shirts that expressed a similar position.

Alan
'I'd walk over You / to see the Who '