Dangerous Forgeries

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

Are you arguing that these forgeries are all die struck from
newly-engraved dies? Or that some are cast from genuine coins? Or
some of each?

I haven't examined them personally and can't pronounce on that. However, Dr.
Farhad Assar, listowner of Iranica-L examined the coins and should be able
to provide those details.

One in particular is very crude and looks like a tourist
copy,

These are not crude fakes. I don't know how much experience you have in
authenticating the Parthian series, but both Assar and I consider these to
be very dangerous.

Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com


but others seem to be casts and some appear genuine from the
posted scans. Of course I cannot see the edges and don't know what the
weights are.

Bob Leonard

"RayCanada" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave Thank you for the article, it would be interesting to hear about your
thoughts on The Bavarian school of forgerys

Bavarian school? What is that? Never heard of such a "school."

and the Toronto group.

My thoughts on the Toronto group are not complimentary.

There is a certain sort of individual who believes that anything he can get
away with in terms of deceiving and defrauding the unwary is OK, so long as
laws are not transgressed in such a manner that he will actually be
prosecuted for it.

The Toronto forgery operation is believed to be run by a Vietnamese criminal
gang in the Toronto underworld. They mostly sell 2nd or 3rd generation
pressure cast fakes from Bulgarian and Peter Rosa type "seed" forgeries. At
first their productions were easily spotted but they have gradually become
more deceptive. They have exploited just about every loophole in Canadian
laws and eBay regulations to deceive unwary eBay neophytes. Usually their
auctions have a starting price of about 10% of the value of a genuine coin.

A booklet was eventually put together by CFDL members and posted in the
Files page of that group's website. Unfortunately Yahoo generated addresses
for files are very long:
http://f5.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/sOQmRAM...2nd %20Ed.doc

The title is "The Toronto Classical Coin Forgeries and Other Coin
Forgeries."

This is a compendium of factual data and opinion. I won't vouch for the
accuracy of everything in it, but there is some good information there.

I had a strong interest in Consintine coins wanted to collect them but
got scared off when I started to do some reading and saw how now even
very common low cost coins are being forged.

If you don't feel confident in your ability to discern wheat from chaff, buy
your coins on VCoins or from reputable dealers, and stay away from eBay. I
have plenty of nice Constantinian dynasty coins at reasonable prices, and so
do many other reputable dealers.

It has long been an adage in the law enforcement community that the easiest
mark for crooks is someone looking for a seller who does not know what his
wares are worth. If you see a "coin" for sale on eBay at much less than its
normal value, rest assured that it won't actually sell for a low price if it
is genuine. eBay is monitored by many knowledgeable dealers and collectrors
looking for bargains.

Even Bedouins in the desert in the Middle East know what ancient coins are
worth. I once read an illuminating comment on that from a dealer who was
invited into a Bedouin tent to examine some coins, and found a stack of
recent auction catalogues from prestigious European dealers.

Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com

Dave,

I have collected Parthian coins longer than you have. I agree with you
that some of these are very dangerous, if indeed they are all fakes,
but one in my opinion is not. Parthian silver coins have inscriptions
made by a connect-the-dots method (drilling depressions at the ends of
letters, then engraving lines to connect them). One of the fakes has
an inscription made by freehand engraving, entirely unlike this
technique, in very loose letters. That is what I meant by a tourist
copy.

Robert Leonard

Robert,

There are genuine Parthian coins with such loosely engraved freehand
inscriptions. Not knowing which one you are referring to, I can't address
this specific specimen.

Dave Welsh
Classical Coins
www.classicalcoins.com



"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dave,

I have collected Parthian coins longer than you have. I agree with you
that some of these are very dangerous, if indeed they are all fakes,
but one in my opinion is not. Parthian silver coins have inscriptions
made by a connect-the-dots method (drilling depressions at the ends of
letters, then engraving lines to connect them). One of the fakes has
an inscription made by freehand engraving, entirely unlike this
technique, in very loose letters. That is what I meant by a tourist
copy.

Robert Leonard

"Mike Marotta" wrote in message
oups.com...

...
But really, you cannot cheat an honest man.
...

I appreciate the sentiment behind this platitude, (that is, I *understand*
it), but really, its got to be one of the silliest "truisms" about.

--
Jeff R.
(not even going to bother explaing why)

On 27 Mar 2006 18:20:24 -0800, "Mike Marotta"
wrote:


I also agree with your comment about law enforcement and people who
were "cheated." We fill out the forms. We say the empathetic things.
But really, you cannot cheat an honest man.

What about the people cheated by Enron? Where they all dishonest?


Reclining Buddha

The Original Couch Potato!

Reclining Buddha wrote:
On 27 Mar 2006 18:20:24 -0800, "Mike Marotta"
wrote:


I also agree with your comment about law enforcement and people who
were "cheated." We fill out the forms. We say the empathetic things.
But really, you cannot cheat an honest man.


What about the people cheated by Enron? Where they all dishonest?


Reclining Buddha

The Original Couch Potato!

Did they collect counterfeit coins too?

On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:26:11 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Reclining Buddha wrote:
On 27 Mar 2006 18:20:24 -0800, "Mike Marotta"
wrote:


I also agree with your comment about law enforcement and people who
were "cheated." We fill out the forms. We say the empathetic things.
But really, you cannot cheat an honest man.


What about the people cheated by Enron? Where they all dishonest?


Reclining Buddha

The Original Couch Potato!

Did they collect counterfeit coins too?


More like counterfeit stock certificates, but close to the same
result.


Reclining Buddha

The Original Couch Potato!

Reclining Buddha wrote:
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 14:26:11 GMT, Ian
wrote:


Reclining Buddha wrote:

On 27 Mar 2006 18:20:24 -0800, "Mike Marotta"
wrote:



I also agree with your comment about law enforcement and people who
were "cheated." We fill out the forms. We say the empathetic things.
But really, you cannot cheat an honest man.


What about the people cheated by Enron? Where they all dishonest?


Reclining Buddha

The Original Couch Potato!

Did they collect counterfeit coins too?



More like counterfeit stock certificates, but close to the same
result.


True, excepting that there's (probably) more of a market for counterfeit
coins than there is for Enron stock.

Ian