Europeans are Slow

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:28:18 GMT, Dik T. Winter wrote:

In article Jorg Lueke
writes:
If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would
mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS
grades.

So the basic behind the slabbing and grading is just monetary value.
Sorry, I am a collector (and I think Colin is also a collector). When
I see a coin and the price looks like what I wish to afford for it, I
buy.
I am not interested in the value (in some circles) of a coin, I am only
interested in whether it fits in my collection and whether I want to
have it. I do not collect coins to sell them later at a premium, I
just collect. I have quite a few duplicates, but they will *not* go to
a buyer, they will only go for an exchange. Actually I have no idea
what the most expensive coin in my collection is, let alone what it would
give me in monetary value. I am just that, a collector.

I think for a lot of people the slab represents some protection against
fakes and grossly misgraded coins. I don't know that people are overly
concerned about value in the terms of resale, I think they just want to
get the "best deal" possible and also to help guarantee the long term
value. That dosen't mean that these collectors are out for a profit but
rather that they see slabs as a way to maximize what they can get in terms
of value.

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:44:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:35:52 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:




Since they don't publish their standards and I heartily disagree
with their grading almost all the time this opinion is worth nothing to
me
and many others.

Yet weren't you advicating slabbing as a benefit to someone without
much experience, and for keeping dealers honest?

No, not me. I don't advocate for buying coins in slabs or against the
practice. I take note of it, but to each his own. But even those who
directly advocate buying slabs usually limit this endorsement to PCGS,
NGC, ANACS and ICG, These are larger companies that have a better chance
of staying in business and certainly offer some guarantees and customer
service. Much else that passes for a garding company is little more than
a guy selling fancy holders with arbitrary numbers on them. I do hope you
see some differences between the two.

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:02:22 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.

Again, what people say Anyone who did would be as
wrong as the anti-slabbing extremist view.

Several people here have said they can buy with confidence because of
slabs.

First, I've never seen one who said their confidence was 100% blind
confidence. And you didn't answer the question: Who said slabbing is THE
answer?

I hold the anti-slabbing view and I am quite proud of it. What sort
of idiot wants their coins to be entombed.

Maybe someone who plans to sell the coin to another person who respects the
slabber's opinion. Maybe someone who values the slabber's guarantee,
whatever it may be. What kind of idiot would ignore a coin just because it's
in a slab? What kind of idiot couldn't figure out how to remove it?

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.

Reputable slabbers do provide certain guarantees, but they are limited,
and
subject to interpretation. For a $30 or less opinion, I wouldn't expect
infallible, unconditional, unlimited, permanent assurances.

So really there is little to no point to forking out the dollars for
an opinion that may or may not be correct.

Personally I'd prefer a decent dealer's opinion and his gurantee.

If you're so concerned about imperfection among reputable slabbers,
shouldn't you avoid "decent" dealers, and stick only to the perfect ones?
Would you, then, never, ever buy a coin from a collector who is leaving the
hobby, or a collector's heir? Or would you only do that through a dealer who
offers an opinion and a guarantee?

Or even better having a good knowledge of what I am purchasing.

Again, why would "good knowledge" be good enough for you, when any
shortcomings in slabbers opinions, even when guaranteed, be unacceptable?

If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask
anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

You ask other people's opinions on coins, but somehow you conclude that
no
other person should ever ask a slabber's opinion.

With a slabber you are getting one opinion and relying on that.

Why would an opinion written on a slab require you to stop thinking?

When you research what you are purchasing you are making an informed
decision.

Subject, of course, to your own imperfections and the imperfections of the
sources from which you conducted your research. Is perfection required
there, too?

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

And why does the dealer offer his opinion to you? Perhaps because you pay
him in the form of purchases or referrals? Altruism? Not likely. Could it
be
your charm? :-)

Could it be that the dealers I purchase from have good return policies
and will stand behind them 100%

Which, of course, you're paying for.

It could also be that I don't always agree with the dealer and I
purchase a coin because I want that particular coin for any number of
reasons.

Could not, then, a person viewing a slab also disagree with and override the
slabber's opinion? In either case, a sale only occurs when the amount you're
willing to pay exceeds the seller's value of the coin.

Slabbing mistakes and abuse happen, just as mistakes and abuse happen in the
raw coin market. But good things happen in both markets, as well. An
extremist view for or against slabs is wrong.

--Chris




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On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:42:26 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:44:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:35:52 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:




Since they don't publish their standards and I heartily disagree
with their grading almost all the time this opinion is worth nothing to
me
and many others.

Yet weren't you advicating slabbing as a benefit to someone without
much experience, and for keeping dealers honest?

No, not me. I don't advocate for buying coins in slabs or against the
practice. I take note of it, but to each his own. But even those who
directly advocate buying slabs usually limit this endorsement to PCGS,
NGC, ANACS and ICG, These are larger companies that have a better chance
of staying in business and certainly offer some guarantees and customer
service. Much else that passes for a garding company is little more than
a guy selling fancy holders with arbitrary numbers on them. I do hope you
see some differences between the two.

Oh I do.

You have a choice of a 'high grade' tomb or a 'low grade' tomb.

Neither are that palatable.


Colin Kynoch

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:38:37 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:28:18 GMT, Dik T. Winter wrote:

In article Jorg Lueke
writes:
If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would
mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS
grades.

So the basic behind the slabbing and grading is just monetary value.
Sorry, I am a collector (and I think Colin is also a collector). When
I see a coin and the price looks like what I wish to afford for it, I
buy.
I am not interested in the value (in some circles) of a coin, I am only
interested in whether it fits in my collection and whether I want to
have it. I do not collect coins to sell them later at a premium, I
just collect. I have quite a few duplicates, but they will *not* go to
a buyer, they will only go for an exchange. Actually I have no idea
what the most expensive coin in my collection is, let alone what it would
give me in monetary value. I am just that, a collector.

I think for a lot of people the slab represents some protection against
fakes and grossly misgraded coins.

Or you could equally say that it provides protection to those who
grossly misgrade and slab fakes.

I don't know that people are overly
concerned about value in the terms of resale, I think they just want to
get the "best deal" possible and also to help guarantee the long term
value. That dosen't mean that these collectors are out for a profit but
rather that they see slabs as a way to maximize what they can get in terms
of value.

ie how much more they can seel them for a t a later date.

Colin Kynoch
Who has read of so many buying in one slab to get regraded by another
company for a profit.

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:09:41 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrotewrote:
"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:
Ironically, the legal backdrop provides greater disincentive to
counterfeit
slabs than to counterfeit coins. If my hunch is right, a civil
(intellectual
property rights) case would be easier to prove than the criminal
(fraud)
case, and more lucrative.
snip
Regardless of the technical incentives to counterfeit slabs, the US
tort
system provides an added disincentive.

And what of counterfeit coins?

The same motive for counterfeiting slabs.

My hunch is that counterfeit coins don't violate intellectual property
rights; countfeit slabs would.

So.

Would that stop counterfeiting of slabs being lucrative? No it would
not.

I am not and was not making an extremist argument that slab counterfeiting
can't or doesn't happen. Theoretically, someone could post an ad claiming to
be the Littleton Coin Company, and sell counterfeit raw coins from a fake
address, too. In both cases, the intellectual property holder has an added
incentive to take legal action, and the law reinforces that incentive with
intellectual property statutes on top of any criminal or other civil
statutes.

If the only evidence you have that slab counterfeiting is happening an
ancient rcc post about a "rash" that occured in the '80s, I'll choose to
place counterfeit slabs low on my list of concerns.

--Chris




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On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:21:16 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:02:22 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.

Again, what people say Anyone who did would be as
wrong as the anti-slabbing extremist view.

Several people here have said they can buy with confidence because of
slabs.

First, I've never seen one who said their confidence was 100% blind
confidence. And you didn't answer the question: Who said slabbing is THE
answer?

Anyone who considers slabbing to be the be all and end all.

Those who wouldn't buy X coin unless it was in a PCGS tomb.

I hold the anti-slabbing view and I am quite proud of it. What sort
of idiot wants their coins to be entombed.

Maybe someone who plans to sell the coin to another person who respects the
slabber's opinion.

So someone who wants to sell to another idiot?

Maybe someone who values the slabber's guarantee,
whatever it may be. What kind of idiot would ignore a coin just because it's
in a slab?

I'd buy a slabbed coin if it met my criteria. I wouldn't buy a
slabbed coin if it was a frequently counterfeited type, as I would be
relying on someone elses opinion., and I understand that the slabbing
companies will only honour the gurantee is the coin is still entombed.
Nice catch 22

What kind of idiot couldn't figure out how to remove it?

There is always the danger of damaging a coin as you unentomb it.

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.

Reputable slabbers do provide certain guarantees, but they are limited,
and
subject to interpretation. For a $30 or less opinion, I wouldn't expect
infallible, unconditional, unlimited, permanent assurances.

So really there is little to no point to forking out the dollars for
an opinion that may or may not be correct.

Personally I'd prefer a decent dealer's opinion and his gurantee.

If you're so concerned about imperfection among reputable slabbers,
shouldn't you avoid "decent" dealers, and stick only to the perfect ones?

I consider a good dealer and good knowledge to be vital when
purchasing a coin.

Would you, then, never, ever buy a coin from a collector who is leaving the
hobby, or a collector's heir?

If I could see the coin and do any tests I would have no problem (eg
weighing the coin measuring the coin)

If not then I'd pass

Or would you only do that through a dealer who
offers an opinion and a guarantee?

I have purchased coins from a wide variety of sources. I have
purchased some lower grade coins from the net based on the photos. I
hae yet to be disappointed. I have also bought some high grade coins
from the net, but then only from dealers whom I trust and whom have a
reasonable returns policy.


Or even better having a good knowledge of what I am purchasing.

Again, why would "good knowledge" be good enough for you, when any
shortcomings in slabbers opinions, even when guaranteed, be unacceptable?

Becuase if I rely on my opinion (and really that is the only one that
matters for coins I purchase) then I can blame no-one but myself if I
don't get what I wanted.

I don't need to pass blame to someone else.

If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask
anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

You ask other people's opinions on coins, but somehow you conclude that
no
other person should ever ask a slabber's opinion.

With a slabber you are getting one opinion and relying on that.

Why would an opinion written on a slab require you to stop thinking?

A slabbed coin is less attractive to me because I have to get it out
of the slab, to be happy.

And have a read of the American posters on this ng. Many of them stop
thinking when they read the initials PCGS.


When you research what you are purchasing you are making an informed
decision.

Subject, of course, to your own imperfections and the imperfections of the
sources from which you conducted your research. Is perfection required
there, too?

I am not the one advocating the slabbers as the pancea for the evils
of coin dealers.

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

And why does the dealer offer his opinion to you? Perhaps because you pay
him in the form of purchases or referrals? Altruism? Not likely. Could it
be
your charm? :-)

Could it be that the dealers I purchase from have good return policies
and will stand behind them 100%

Which, of course, you're paying for.

Not really.
I can buy two coins from two separate dealers taht are essentially the
same, for the same price. One dealer offers a guarantee, the other
doesn't.


It could also be that I don't always agree with the dealer and I
purchase a coin because I want that particular coin for any number of
reasons.

Could not, then, a person viewing a slab also disagree with and override the
slabber's opinion?

They could, but it seems the majority of Americans don't, they take
the Slab as GOSPEL.

In either case, a sale only occurs when the amount you're
willing to pay exceeds the seller's value of the coin.

Or equals what the seller is willing to sell for.

If a dealer isn't willing to sell for what I am willing to pay no deal
is done.

Slabbing mistakes and abuse happen, just as mistakes and abuse happen in the
raw coin market.

So why slab?

Slabbing is not beneficial to the newbie in particular. If anything
slabbing gives unscrupulous dealers more opportunity to deceive, than
before.

But good things happen in both markets, as well. An
extremist view for or against slabs is wrong.

I have yet to see a good arguement for slabbing other than it helps
people to sell coins with miniscule differences for massive premiums.

Colin Kynoch

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:32:47 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:09:41 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrotewrote:
"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:
Ironically, the legal backdrop provides greater disincentive to
counterfeit
slabs than to counterfeit coins. If my hunch is right, a civil
(intellectual
property rights) case would be easier to prove than the criminal
(fraud)
case, and more lucrative.
snip
Regardless of the technical incentives to counterfeit slabs, the US
tort
system provides an added disincentive.

And what of counterfeit coins?

The same motive for counterfeiting slabs.

My hunch is that counterfeit coins don't violate intellectual property
rights; countfeit slabs would.

So.

Would that stop counterfeiting of slabs being lucrative? No it would
not.

I am not and was not making an extremist argument that slab counterfeiting
can't or doesn't happen. Theoretically, someone could post an ad claiming to
be the Littleton Coin Company, and sell counterfeit raw coins from a fake
address, too. In both cases, the intellectual property holder has an added
incentive to take legal action, and the law reinforces that incentive with
intellectual property statutes on top of any criminal or other civil
statutes.

If the only evidence you have that slab counterfeiting is happening an
ancient rcc post about a "rash" that occured in the '80s, I'll choose to
place counterfeit slabs low on my list of concerns.

I have suggested that counterfeit slabs are likely to be so good as to
be undetectable.

A smart counterfeiter will make sure that the counterfeit slab is for
a coin worth a reasonable amount that has a reasonable population.

It would take a very unfortunate (for the counterfeiter) situation for
them to be ound out.

As this would be very lucrative, it makes perfect sense that it has
and is being done.

Colin Kynoch

I'll cede the battle of attrition on this one--I'm out of time, except to
say that each of the practices you rely on has risks that are just as
assailable as those inherent in considering a slabber's opinion or valuing
his guarantee, if the assailant takes an extremist position.

--Chris


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 23:21:16 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:02:22 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed
it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.

Again, what people say Anyone who did would be as
wrong as the anti-slabbing extremist view.

Several people here have said they can buy with confidence because of
slabs.

First, I've never seen one who said their confidence was 100% blind
confidence. And you didn't answer the question: Who said slabbing is THE
answer?

Anyone who considers slabbing to be the be all and end all.

Those who wouldn't buy X coin unless it was in a PCGS tomb.

I hold the anti-slabbing view and I am quite proud of it. What sort
of idiot wants their coins to be entombed.

Maybe someone who plans to sell the coin to another person who respects
the
slabber's opinion.

So someone who wants to sell to another idiot?

Maybe someone who values the slabber's guarantee,
whatever it may be. What kind of idiot would ignore a coin just because
it's
in a slab?

I'd buy a slabbed coin if it met my criteria. I wouldn't buy a
slabbed coin if it was a frequently counterfeited type, as I would be
relying on someone elses opinion., and I understand that the slabbing
companies will only honour the gurantee is the coin is still entombed.
Nice catch 22

What kind of idiot couldn't figure out how to remove it?

There is always the danger of damaging a coin as you unentomb it.

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.

Reputable slabbers do provide certain guarantees, but they are
limited,
and
subject to interpretation. For a $30 or less opinion, I wouldn't
expect
infallible, unconditional, unlimited, permanent assurances.

So really there is little to no point to forking out the dollars for
an opinion that may or may not be correct.

Personally I'd prefer a decent dealer's opinion and his gurantee.

If you're so concerned about imperfection among reputable slabbers,
shouldn't you avoid "decent" dealers, and stick only to the perfect ones?

I consider a good dealer and good knowledge to be vital when
purchasing a coin.

Would you, then, never, ever buy a coin from a collector who is leaving
the
hobby, or a collector's heir?

If I could see the coin and do any tests I would have no problem (eg
weighing the coin measuring the coin)

If not then I'd pass

Or would you only do that through a dealer who
offers an opinion and a guarantee?

I have purchased coins from a wide variety of sources. I have
purchased some lower grade coins from the net based on the photos. I
hae yet to be disappointed. I have also bought some high grade coins
from the net, but then only from dealers whom I trust and whom have a
reasonable returns policy.


Or even better having a good knowledge of what I am purchasing.

Again, why would "good knowledge" be good enough for you, when any
shortcomings in slabbers opinions, even when guaranteed, be unacceptable?

Becuase if I rely on my opinion (and really that is the only one that
matters for coins I purchase) then I can blame no-one but myself if I
don't get what I wanted.

I don't need to pass blame to someone else.

If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask
anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

You ask other people's opinions on coins, but somehow you conclude
that
no
other person should ever ask a slabber's opinion.

With a slabber you are getting one opinion and relying on that.

Why would an opinion written on a slab require you to stop thinking?

A slabbed coin is less attractive to me because I have to get it out
of the slab, to be happy.

And have a read of the American posters on this ng. Many of them stop
thinking when they read the initials PCGS.


When you research what you are purchasing you are making an informed
decision.

Subject, of course, to your own imperfections and the imperfections of
the
sources from which you conducted your research. Is perfection required
there, too?

I am not the one advocating the slabbers as the pancea for the evils
of coin dealers.

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

And why does the dealer offer his opinion to you? Perhaps because you
pay
him in the form of purchases or referrals? Altruism? Not likely. Could
it
be
your charm? :-)

Could it be that the dealers I purchase from have good return policies
and will stand behind them 100%

Which, of course, you're paying for.

Not really.
I can buy two coins from two separate dealers taht are essentially the
same, for the same price. One dealer offers a guarantee, the other
doesn't.


It could also be that I don't always agree with the dealer and I
purchase a coin because I want that particular coin for any number of
reasons.

Could not, then, a person viewing a slab also disagree with and override
the
slabber's opinion?

They could, but it seems the majority of Americans don't, they take
the Slab as GOSPEL.

In either case, a sale only occurs when the amount you're
willing to pay exceeds the seller's value of the coin.

Or equals what the seller is willing to sell for.

If a dealer isn't willing to sell for what I am willing to pay no deal
is done.

Slabbing mistakes and abuse happen, just as mistakes and abuse happen in
the
raw coin market.

So why slab?

Slabbing is not beneficial to the newbie in particular. If anything
slabbing gives unscrupulous dealers more opportunity to deceive, than
before.

But good things happen in both markets, as well. An
extremist view for or against slabs is wrong.

I have yet to see a good arguement for slabbing other than it helps
people to sell coins with miniscule differences for massive premiums.

Colin Kynoch




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On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 05:30:53 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:38:37 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 04:28:18 GMT, Dik T. Winter
wrote:

In article Jorg Lueke
writes:
If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist
and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would
mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS
grades.

So the basic behind the slabbing and grading is just monetary value.
Sorry, I am a collector (and I think Colin is also a collector). When
I see a coin and the price looks like what I wish to afford for it, I
buy.
I am not interested in the value (in some circles) of a coin, I am only
interested in whether it fits in my collection and whether I want to
have it. I do not collect coins to sell them later at a premium, I
just collect. I have quite a few duplicates, but they will *not* go to
a buyer, they will only go for an exchange. Actually I have no idea
what the most expensive coin in my collection is, let alone what it
would
give me in monetary value. I am just that, a collector.

I think for a lot of people the slab represents some protection against
fakes and grossly misgraded coins.

Or you could equally say that it provides protection to those who
grossly misgrade and slab fakes.

I don't know that people are overly
concerned about value in the terms of resale, I think they just want to
get the "best deal" possible and also to help guarantee the long term
value. That dosen't mean that these collectors are out for a profit but
rather that they see slabs as a way to maximize what they can get in
terms
of value.

ie how much more they can seel them for a t a later date.

Colin Kynoch
Who has read of so many buying in one slab to get regraded by another
company for a profit.

Certainly people do this as well. Does it make sense that a coin I bough
for $1000 a week ago is now magically worth $10,000 in a new piece of
plastic? Some people must think so.