Europeans are Slow

"Colin Kynoch" wrotewrote:
"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:
Ironically, the legal backdrop provides greater disincentive to
counterfeit
slabs than to counterfeit coins. If my hunch is right, a civil
(intellectual
property rights) case would be easier to prove than the criminal
(fraud)
case, and more lucrative.
snip
Regardless of the technical incentives to counterfeit slabs, the US tort
system provides an added disincentive.

And what of counterfeit coins?

The same motive for counterfeiting slabs.

My hunch is that counterfeit coins don't violate intellectual property
rights; countfeit slabs would. In a counterfeit slab would presumably be a
misrepresented coin (maybe counterfeit, maybe altered, maybe overgraded);
thus, you have two cases of fraud and an intellectual property tort.

--Chris




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Chris S wrote:
"Mark Cooper" wrote:

For grading, I'll do my own, and/or ask a trusted collector or dealer
when there's a question.


On what basis do you trust the collector or dealer, and how would that
differ from how slabbers have earned trust of their clients?


I trust this dealer the same way any of us trust a dealer. We talk to
other collectors and find out who can be trusted. The same could be said
of the slabbing companies. By word of mouth we find out who the better
companies are. The more positive transactions you have, the more you trust.


For authentication, I am fortunate to have a very knowledgeable dealer
in the area who can help me in that regard.


How do you compensate that dealer?

Monetarily, I don't, except with my continued business, and with the
people who I refer to him.


Mark

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 00:56:29 -0600, Ed. Stoebenau
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:43:28 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 20:42:51 +0000, note.boy

wrote:

If grading is subjective what's the point of buying slabbed coins?

To guarentee authenticity

But that's really for only a fraction (likely small) of slabbed
coins. Slabs really aren't needed to guarantee the authenticity
of an 1881-S Morgan dollar. Plus there have been authenticity
services w/o slabs. Think ANAAB, early ANACS for examples. More
importantly, how does the authenticity issue (which for some
cases even this vigorous anti-slabber will agree that certain
slabs can be a useful tool) prop up the whole of the slabbing
scene, even those of the first and 2nd tier services, when
authenticity is really in most cases just a side effect of
grading?

Why are coins "cracked out" for the chance of a higher grade.

Because grading is subjective and even the same person can come to two
different conclusions on two different days

And of course what does this level of inconsistency say about the
utility of slabs?

Why do some collectors pay mega bucks extra for a minute grade
improvement?

They are either very, very knowledgable and keen graders

No, that would tell one to buy below the price jump, not above
it.

or they are
informed speculators with more money than sense.

Doesn't sound very informed then, does it?

I don't make any judgements on any of this. I'm just predicting the
future :-)
On many things I end up somewhere between two extremes and slabbing is no
exception. It has good points and bad ones, and certainly is no panacea.

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:44:10 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:31 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:50:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:40:04 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:


Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is at
least getting what's on the label.

Or are they?

Are you suggesting that if someone buys an ACG MS66 they are getting
the equivalent of a PCGS MS66?

Puhleese.


No if they are buying an ACG MS66 they are getting a coin encapsulated
by
ACG which in their professional opinion should grade MS66. If you buy a
PCGS MS66 you get that company's opinion about the grade. The two are
most definitly not equivalent.

Ah so really the numbers are jsut stabs in the dark.

Umm no. The numbers are as valid as the grade you assign your coins, in
some cases the numebrs are probably better than yhour assesment in other
cases worse.

No coin grading company has maintained their standards since inception
have they?

ANACS?


Not even the great God PCGS.

Even Ira would have to agree with that.

Colin Kynoch

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:49:39 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:44:10 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:31 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:50:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:40:04 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:


Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is at
least getting what's on the label.

Or are they?

Are you suggesting that if someone buys an ACG MS66 they are getting
the equivalent of a PCGS MS66?

Puhleese.


No if they are buying an ACG MS66 they are getting a coin encapsulated
by
ACG which in their professional opinion should grade MS66. If you buy a
PCGS MS66 you get that company's opinion about the grade. The two are
most definitly not equivalent.

Ah so really the numbers are jsut stabs in the dark.

Umm no. The numbers are as valid as the grade you assign your coins, in
some cases the numebrs are probably better than yhour assesment in other
cases worse.

So you are saying that ACG grades are valid?


No coin grading company has maintained their standards since inception
have they?

ANACS?

If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

Colin Kynoch

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:02:22 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.

Again, what people say slabbing is THE answer? Anyone who did would be as
wrong as the anti-slabbing extremist view.

Several people here have said they can buy with confidence because of
slabs.

I hold the anti-slabbing view and I am quite proud of it. What sort
of idiot wants their coins to be entombed.

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.

Reputable slabbers do provide certain guarantees, but they are limited, and
subject to interpretation. For a $30 or less opinion, I wouldn't expect
infallible, unconditional, unlimited, permanent assurances.

So really there is little to no point to forking out the dollars for
an opinion that may or may not be correct.

Personally I'd prefer a decent dealer's opinion and his gurantee.

Or even better having a good knowledge of what I am purchasing.

If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

You ask other people's opinions on coins, but somehow you conclude that no
other person should ever ask a slabber's opinion.

With a slabber you are getting one opinion and relying on that.

When you research what you are purchasing you are making an informed
decision.

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

And why does the dealer offer his opinion to you? Perhaps because you pay
him in the form of purchases or referrals? Altruism? Not likely. Could it be
your charm? :-)

Could it be that the dealers I purchase from have good return policies
and will stand behind them 100%

It could also be that I don't always agree with the dealer and I
purchase a coin because I want that particular coin for any number of
reasons.

I certainly don't want coins marred by being entombed in nasty plastic

Colin Kynoch

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 18:09:41 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrotewrote:
"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:
Ironically, the legal backdrop provides greater disincentive to
counterfeit
slabs than to counterfeit coins. If my hunch is right, a civil
(intellectual
property rights) case would be easier to prove than the criminal
(fraud)
case, and more lucrative.
snip
Regardless of the technical incentives to counterfeit slabs, the US tort
system provides an added disincentive.

And what of counterfeit coins?

The same motive for counterfeiting slabs.

My hunch is that counterfeit coins don't violate intellectual property
rights; countfeit slabs would.

So.

Would that stop counterfeiting of slabs being lucrative? No it would
not.


In a counterfeit slab would presumably be a
misrepresented coin (maybe counterfeit, maybe altered, maybe overgraded);
thus, you have two cases of fraud and an intellectual property tort.

If you are going to break the law once in this regard do you really
think breaking it twice is going to deter?

I am certainly not that naive.

Colin Kynoch

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:06:51 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:49:39 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:44:10 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:31 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:50:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:40:04 -0600, Jorg Lueke

wrote:


Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is
at
least getting what's on the label.

Or are they?

Are you suggesting that if someone buys an ACG MS66 they are getting
the equivalent of a PCGS MS66?

Puhleese.


No if they are buying an ACG MS66 they are getting a coin encapsulated
by
ACG which in their professional opinion should grade MS66. If you
buy a
PCGS MS66 you get that company's opinion about the grade. The two are
most definitly not equivalent.

Ah so really the numbers are jsut stabs in the dark.

Umm no. The numbers are as valid as the grade you assign your coins, in
some cases the numebrs are probably better than yhour assesment in other
cases worse.

So you are saying that ACG grades are valid?

They are valid as what they are. The opinion of ACG as to the grade of a
coin. Since they don't publish their standards and I heartily disagree
with their grading almost all the time this opinion is worth nothing to me
and many others.



No coin grading company has maintained their standards since inception
have they?

ANACS?

If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS grades.

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:35:52 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:06:51 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 22:49:39 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:44:10 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:31 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:50:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:40:04 -0600, Jorg Lueke

wrote:


Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is
at
least getting what's on the label.

Or are they?

Are you suggesting that if someone buys an ACG MS66 they are getting
the equivalent of a PCGS MS66?

Puhleese.


No if they are buying an ACG MS66 they are getting a coin encapsulated
by
ACG which in their professional opinion should grade MS66. If you
buy a
PCGS MS66 you get that company's opinion about the grade. The two are
most definitly not equivalent.

Ah so really the numbers are jsut stabs in the dark.

Umm no. The numbers are as valid as the grade you assign your coins, in
some cases the numebrs are probably better than yhour assesment in other
cases worse.

So you are saying that ACG grades are valid?

They are valid as what they are. The opinion of ACG as to the grade of a
coin.

So a newbie coming into coin collecting, and knowing no better could
quite easily think they have purchased a MS 68 coin when in fact is
could be an AU55

This is what makes it easider for some coin dealers to be
unscrupulous.

They can abdicate responsiblity, saying, but that was the slab grade.


Since they don't publish their standards and I heartily disagree
with their grading almost all the time this opinion is worth nothing to me
and many others.

Yet weren't you advicating slabbing as a benefit to someone without
much experience, and for keeping dealers honest?


No coin grading company has maintained their standards since inception
have they?

ANACS?

If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS grades.

There are some here who worship at the alter of PCGS, and their
opinions are held very highly

Colin Kynoch

In article Jorg Lueke writes:
If this is the case why then are PCGS considered the best?

MAybe because people like slipping grading as they can resubmist and
their coins are suddenly worth considerably more.

Madness.

I don't know why PCGS is cosnidered the best or what the best would mean.
I know their coins tend to bring a premium for some series in MS grades.

So the basic behind the slabbing and grading is just monetary value.
Sorry, I am a collector (and I think Colin is also a collector). When
I see a coin and the price looks like what I wish to afford for it, I buy.
I am not interested in the value (in some circles) of a coin, I am only
interested in whether it fits in my collection and whether I want to
have it. I do not collect coins to sell them later at a premium, I
just collect. I have quite a few duplicates, but they will *not* go to
a buyer, they will only go for an exchange. Actually I have no idea
what the most expensive coin in my collection is, let alone what it would
give me in monetary value. I am just that, a collector.
--
dik t. winter, cwi, kruislaan 413, 1098 sj amsterdam, nederland, +31205924131
home: bovenover 215, 1025 jn amsterdam, nederland; http://www.cwi.nl/~dik/