Europeans are Slow

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 22:36:31 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 21:50:59 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:40:04 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:


Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is at
least getting what's on the label.

Or are they?

Are you suggesting that if someone buys an ACG MS66 they are getting
the equivalent of a PCGS MS66?

Puhleese.


No if they are buying an ACG MS66 they are getting a coin encapsulated by
ACG which in their professional opinion should grade MS66. If you buy a
PCGS MS66 you get that company's opinion about the grade. The two are
most definitly not equivalent.

Ah so really the numbers are jsut stabs in the dark.

No coin grading company has maintained their standards since inception
have they?

Not even the great God PCGS.

Even Ira would have to agree with that.

Colin Kynoch

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 00:17:51 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:32:31 -0500, "Bruce Remick" wrote:
snip
I do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin is genuine
and
that it hasn't been cleaned.

Can you?

How can you be sure?

Are you suggesting that 100% certainty should be the standard? How, then,
are you sure of your abilities?

I am not the one preaching the gospel of the slab.

Bruce said, " do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin
is genuine and that it hasn't been cleaned."

How can he be sure?


Because it is in a bit of plastic with a hologram?

Both more easily reproduced than the contents.

Can you provide one single example of a slab that's been counterfeited,
ever?

According to this post PCGS had a rash of them

http://groups.google.com.au/groups?h...aol.com&rnum=6


And what of the coin grading companies that slab cleaned, coins?

They are to be avoided. A google search on the new PCI, ACG, NTC, and
Trugrade (have I missed any) can provide you copious writings on this
subject.

So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.


And what of the counterfeit coins that even PCGS have slabbed?

When has PCGS, NGC, ANACS, or ICG ever failed to make good on the rare
authenticity error?

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.


You sure are placing a lot of faith in a piece of paper within a
plastic capsule.

Colin, what gave you the mistaken impression that any person who has posted
to rcc, and this thread in particular, puts blind faith in any slab?

"I do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin is genuine
and that it hasn't been cleaned.

" i refuse to confine my coin purchases to coins I am familiar enough
with to make a good judgement. Slabbed coins are a particularly good
choice for those type of purchases."

Really?


If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

But I would have thought that
someone of such stature could at least grant that others who want to buy or
sell expensive coins might reasonably ask an expert for his opinion, and to
pay that expert a fair fee for the opinion.

I would have thought that any sensible person would do their research
before making an expensive purchase, particulalry one that is a
discretionary purchase.

Colin Kynoch

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:39:40 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 16:28:00 +0000 (UTC), Darren
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:15:25 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


Nice to hear from a rational Aussie for a change.


Rational Aussie, isn't that an oxymoron, you know... like bagpipe
music, military intelligence etc...

Educated American?.

That's a little irrational...

Oh wait, I see what you did. Very funny

Thanks
Darren
One of Her Majesties subjects in jolly olde England

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:59:01 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:32:31 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:20:16 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:28:15 -0600, Jorg Lueke

wrote:

Umm no. A grade is an opinion not a fact. Opinions can and do
change.
No one should rely on any one opinion for a grade excepting perhaps
their
own. But, slab grading has made it harder for dealers to sucker
newbies
with sliders, whizzed coins, AU as BU and so forth.

There is this wonderful think called caveat emptor.

If a dealer is crooked he can still sucker a newbie. He could sell
him an ACG slabbed coin.

To me that is even worse, because he is using the very protection you
are claiming for the newbie to sucker him.

At least if he is selleing a raw coin it can be considered as the
dealers opinion.

All slabs do is let dealers and others selling coins abdicate
responsiblity.

No, whether a dealer is crooked or not has nothing to do with slabs.
Some
people are just sleazy and they'll find a way to take advantage of
people
regardless. Slabs, in my opinion, have made it harder for dealers to
pass
off overgraded and overcleaned coins. Does this mean it makes sense to
x10 for a MS68 as opposed to an MS67? Not to me, but the person is at
least getting what's on the label.

A slabbed coin tells me that at least one other qualified person
besides
the coin dealer agrees with the grade. If I look at it and agree with
the
grade, that makes three. If the price is comparable to what I would pay
for
a raw coin, I would buy it and have the option of leaving it in the slab
or
cracking it out.
I do like the fact that I can be confident a slabbed coin is genuine
and
that it hasn't been cleaned.

Can you?

Certainly. When I stick with PCGS or NGC-graded coins.

So they have never slabbed a fake or a cleaned coin?


How can you be sure?

Trust. How can you be sure your surgeon didn't make a few mistakes while
you were under?

I don't, but I sure as hell do my research before I would let him put
me under.

your petrol really is the octane it says on the pump?

I don't use petrol, I use gas (the real gas, not what Americans call
gas), when you travel 80,000 kms per annum (50,000 miles) it pays to
use gas not petrol.

And in Australia I would be suspicious of many outlets for petrol.




The
waiter who just disappeared for a couple minutes with your credit card is an
honest person?

I never let my credit card out of my sight at a restaurant, or
anywhere elese I use one for that matter.


And if he were dishonest (and I have only had problems with taht sort
of thing on the net) I would query the charge and have the money
refunded to my account.

Because it is in a bit of plastic with a hologram?

No. Because of who put it in that bit of plastic with the hologram.


How can you be sure who put it in the bit of plastic with the
hologram?


Both more easily reproduced than the contents.

Has anyone bothered to do this yet? Let's handle that if or when it
happens. Meanwhile, the sky is not falling.

How do you know it hasn't happened already?

And it could have happened on a reasonably large scale, and would
likely go undetected for quite a long time if the counterfeiters were
half intelligent.

It certainly would not be difficult to make it happen and for it to
remain undetected for ages.


And what of the coin grading companies that slab cleaned, coins?

Simple. I generally avoid them. Not very hard to do.

And if PCGS continue to let their standards slip how long before they
do it?

And what of the counterfeit coins that even PCGS have slabbed?

I avoid them, too. A couple of blatant mistakes in hundreds of thousands of
coins slabbed doesn't concern me.

If they were so blatant, that would concern me even more. If they
missed the obvious ones then they have probably missed some much
better fakes.


You sure are placing a lot of faith in a piece of paper within a
plastic capsule.

It's not *blind* faith. The grade on the slab of the reputable services is
generally respected. Hard to dispute that.

Weren't PCI respected one?

NGC?

As a collector, the grade I
wrote on my cardboard coin holder might be questioned when I came to sell
it, even though I might have put as much study into determining the coin's
grade as the PCGS expert.

Well reading this ng it seems that the grade marked on the plastic is
just as contentious as your grade on a 2x2

I don't like the fact that slabbing seems to
have begat the recent MS68, 69, 70 price frenzy with modern mint
products.

And that seems to be the main reason for slabbing.

The original reason for slabbing has been pointed out often-- the sight
unseen investment market. Slabbing has indeed evolved from there to include
those modern coin ultra-grades to entice and accommodate those who insist
on the ultimate. You can play that game or not. Obviously, both of us
choose not to.

Isn't the "modern coin ultra-grades" just part of the sight unseen
investment market?


I would love to see what the breakup is between Modern mint products
and non Modern Mint products.


For the most part, I don't feel comfortable or the need to play higher
than
MS65 with circulation coins. My proof sets are all simply proof-- MS70
in
my opinion--I don't need a third party to point out a detracting lint
mark
or a few atoms out of line.

I must say Bruce from your comments I can't see why you would buy
anything in a slab?

For the bulk of my collecting interests, I don't.

Smart man.

But I have sent off
several keys to be authenticated, graded, and slabbed to add some authority
to the grade and to give me comfort. I also have bought several MS older
coins in slabs simply because I liked them and because the price was in line
with what a comparably-graded raw coin might bring. I would not pass on a
coin I like just because it's in a slab.


I wouldn't either, but it wouldn't be in the slab for long after I got
it home.

Colin Kynoch

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:40:55 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 13:53:08 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Jorg Lueke" wrote:
I really don't know how hard it would be to get a
given coin into a counterfeit slab. I suspect it's not quite that
simple,
or easy to get away with undetected, otherwise it would be happening.

Ironically, the legal backdrop provides greater disincentive to
counterfeit
slabs than to counterfeit coins. If my hunch is right, a civil
(intellectual
property rights) case would be easier to prove than the criminal (fraud)
case, and more lucrative.

As one PCGS slab looks pretty much like another, it would be easier to
counterfeit than the coin.

And far more lucrative and cost effective as well.

Regardless of the technical incentives to counterfeit slabs, the US tort
system provides an added disincentive.

And what of counterfeit coins?

The same motive for counterfeiting slabs.

To make money in a fraudulent maner.

To that sort of person the law is not a disincentive.

Counterfeiting a slab would be far simpler to do and far easier to get
away with than counterfeiting a coin.

Colin Kynoch

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 20:40:12 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 12:32:36 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 05:36:44 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:29:58 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:33:45 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:


Hwo do you know you haven't bought a counterfeit slab?

Sasanian coins don't come in slabs :-)

Gonna have your slab slabbed?

I think the quality and holograms plus the serial number are a pretty
good
deterrent.

And for coins that retail in the range $1,000 - $15,000 and there are
many in that range, it would be well worth a counterfeiter investing
in the time and money to counterfeit the slab.

If we were to take a PCGS slab for example, if someone were to be able
to reproduce the hologram (and I am sure the technology exists) and
run off a reasonable number (let's say 1,000) and this costs them and
then they work out how to manufacture the slab all they then have to
do is do a little research on the PCGS web site or even easier Ebay
and they can then work out which coins they can target to put in
counterfeit slabs.

As you have made clear the coins themsleves are an afterthought to a
large number of buyers, the coin only has to look reasonable, and the
normal tests like checking weight are not possible without cracking
out the coin, so they only have to have something that looks
reasonable in the slab and they could make a very tidy profit.

As for the serial number I can go to any number of ebay auctions and
take note of the serial number.

Check the Pop Report with PCGS and make sure you aren't counterfeiting
one that has too small a population (say less than 50.

And voila you have a coin in a slab that someone can everify as being
the right coin in the right slab, and unless someone already owns that
particular slab who would know and unless they had sent it off to PCGS
themselves how would they know whether they had the real one or not?



Colin Kynoch

Maybe you are right. I really don't know how hard it would be to get a
given coin into a counterfeit slab.

It would be child's play to get a coin into a counterfeit slab.

And if you were counterfeiting the slab, you'd counterfeit the coin to
maximise your profit and lessen your chance of detection.

I suspect it's not quite that simple,
or easy to get away with undetected, otherwise it would be happening.

Or conversely it is easy to do and easy to get by undetected, and it
is rife.

If you had just purchased a $2,000 coin in a PCGS slabbed coin. Would
you really want to break it out to check if the coin was legit?

And if the hologram and the rest looked OK would you suspect it?

Counterfeiting slabs would be easier than counterfeiting coins.


Are you suggesting that someone is putting counterfeit/altered coins in
counterfeit slabs and that we should be concerned about this?

i am suggesting that there is a large number of people who consider
there to begood money in counterfeiting coins and selling them.

Criminals with the intelligence and know how to produce reasonable
counterfeiots would certainly have an easy time producing a probably
undetectable counterfeit slab. So if there are counterfeit coins it
is logocal to assume they have taken the far easier and lesslikely to
be detected rout of counterfeiting slabs.

To think otherwise is naive

Have you ever heard of this happening?

Yep in this ng.

If so, more people should be made aware of
it. If not, why raise the alarm about what someone might be able to do?

I would have thought that my comments here and the ease at which a
counterfeit slab could be produced would have been enough to put doubt
in any intelligent persons mind.

Particulalry with the proliferation of counterfeit coins currently on
teh market.

What better screen than to be selling obvious counterfeits to draw
attention away from the possibility that it is happening to the slabs
that these counterfeit coins will cause more buyers to run too?

People can do a lot of much more scary things, and we're lucky they don't.

And sometimes it takes a large disaster before people realise what is
happening.

Colin Kynoch

Colin Kynoch wrote:
On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 06:13:39 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
. ..

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 19:12:35 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
m...

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:22:24 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

We have had a slabbing company in Australia, and let's just say it
crashed and burned, as there was no real demand.


That's too bad.

No it would have been detrimental to our market, just as it has to the
US one.

How do you know what would/could have been? And you're intimately familiar
with the US market?


I have seen what it has done to the US market.

It has made collecting more of a crap shoot and it seems that if the
majority of US posters in this ng are any guide that the number on the
slab is more important than what is in the slab.

The number of posts people make about their gambles that they make in
sending coins off for slabbing is astounding.


It seems like a lot of people get back their coins, and the mere fact
that the slab says MSXX or AUXX is some sort of guarantee that the coin
_is_ that grade, as if the grade of a coin is an objective, empirically
quantifiable thing.

For the person with the set of MS69 commemoratives, how many of those
would have been 67 4 years ago? Or 65?

For grading, I'll do my own, and/or ask a trusted collector or dealer
when there's a question.

For authentication, I am fortunate to have a very knowledgeable dealer
in the area who can help me in that regard.

I'll keep my 30 bucks and buy coins!

Mark

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
So alabbing oins't really THE answer that people here have calimed it
to be. If anything it makes it easier for the unsuspecting to be
conned.

Again, what people say slabbing is THE answer? Anyone who did would be as
wrong as the anti-slabbing extremist view.

So you admit that buying a salb does not gurantee a legitimate coin
and that it may be counterfeit.

Reputable slabbers do provide certain guarantees, but they are limited, and
subject to interpretation. For a $30 or less opinion, I wouldn't expect
infallible, unconditional, unlimited, permanent assurances.

If you are so expert that you have never needed or wanted to ask anyone
else's opinion on a coin, bully for you.

I haven't said that.

I said I have asked lots of people, read lots of literature and when
confident I go and buy the coins I want.

You ask other people's opinions on coins, but somehow you conclude that no
other person should ever ask a slabber's opinion.

Generally from a dealer, but not always.

And why does the dealer offer his opinion to you? Perhaps because you pay
him in the form of purchases or referrals? Altruism? Not likely. Could it be
your charm? :-)

--Chris




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"Mark Cooper" wrote:
For grading, I'll do my own, and/or ask a trusted collector or dealer
when there's a question.

On what basis do you trust the collector or dealer, and how would that
differ from how slabbers have earned trust of their clients?

For authentication, I am fortunate to have a very knowledgeable dealer
in the area who can help me in that regard.

How do you compensate that dealer?

--Chris




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"Ed. Stoebenau" wrote:
But it does appear that a lot
of the vigorous slab apologetics is based on claims that
counterfeits superabound and cannot be detected except by those
that can put coins in a slab with certain initials on them.

Who has said that only slabbers can detect counterfeits? That would be
extremist and wrong. I know of many who have said that they rate reputable
slabbers' counterfeit detection skills higher than they rate their own.
What's wrong with those people paying for an opinion?

Plus
there needs to be someone that your coin with one less tick mark
than another is still worth 10 times the price, even though if it
gets cracked out and regraded another tickmark might be found
that time.

I don't collect supergrades, but for those who do value (and pay for) such
pristine surfaces (or any other feature in a coin), why would it be wrong
for them to pay for an opinion from someone they trust to reduce the risk
that their opinion is wrong? Would they also be wrong to spend money on a
microscope? If the person who opines as to the condition of the coin's
surface says his opinion is valid and/or guaranteed as long as the coin
isn't disturbed, what's wrong with putting it in a slab?

--Chris




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