Europeans are Slow

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 17:02:52 -0600, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:52:32 GMT, Ian
wrote:

Colin Kynoch wrote:
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:01:47 GMT, "Stujoe"
wrote:


"note.boy" wrote in message
...

If a collector of gold coins doesn't know the difference between a
genuine coin and a fake he should be collecting something else. Billy

I sure wich I knew everything about every coin that I might ever want
to own
without consulting a more experience opinion. I envy you guys.


You don't have to know everything about it to detect if it is
counterfeit.

Most coin guides will give you enough information to give you a good
idea as t whether the coin is fake or not.

If you are unsure then don't buy. Pretty simple.

Colin Kynoch


Beides, a coin in a slab is apparently no indication (or guarantee) of
the coin being genuine. The `slabbers' are only as `expert' as the
expertise you wish to confer upon them.


IIRC don't the mainstream grading companies guarantee authenticity?

yes


And if the coin is later proven to be fake they come good?


yes


And if the slab is a counterfeit that protection is worth what?

And I am certain that counterfeit slabs exist.


Colin Kynoch

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
Why it has been good enough for them to collect coins without slabbing
since before America was discovered.

Just because Americans think something is a good thing doesn't make it
so.

I for one think the Europeans are too smart to go down the slabbing
road.

There's been much ado in this thread about the principle of slabbing and the
cleverness of those who do or don't. Economics , drive the slabbing market
more than values or intelligence. In America, coins are more expensive (thus
a third-party opinion is worth more) and slabbing costs are lower (not only
as a percentage of coin cost, but also because the cost of doing business is
lower). Thus, slabbing is a better value in the US than elsewhere. If the
European/Australian/whatever coin prices begin to look like US coin prices,
slabbing will emerge there. Conversely, if the American market declines or
costs in America go up, slabbing will wane here.

--Chris




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"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
That is clearly the primary reason for slabbing in the US, the actual
coin is incidental.

the others are peripheral.

Oh, please.

--Chris




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On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:29:58 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 22:33:45 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:


Hwo do you know you haven't bought a counterfeit slab?

Sasanian coins don't come in slabs :-)

Gonna have your slab slabbed?

I think the quality and holograms plus the serial number are a pretty good
deterrent.

And for coins that retail in the range $1,000 - $15,000 and there are
many in that range, it would be well worth a counterfeiter investing
in the time and money to counterfeit the slab.

If we were to take a PCGS slab for example, if someone were to be able
to reproduce the hologram (and I am sure the technology exists) and
run off a reasonable number (let's say 1,000) and this costs them and
then they work out how to manufacture the slab all they then have to
do is do a little research on the PCGS web site or even easier Ebay
and they can then work out which coins they can target to put in
counterfeit slabs.

As you have made clear the coins themsleves are an afterthought to a
large number of buyers, the coin only has to look reasonable, and the
normal tests like checking weight are not possible without cracking
out the coin, so they only have to have something that looks
reasonable in the slab and they could make a very tidy profit.

As for the serial number I can go to any number of ebay auctions and
take note of the serial number.

Check the Pop Report with PCGS and make sure you aren't counterfeiting
one that has too small a population (say less than 50.

And voila you have a coin in a slab that someone can everify as being
the right coin in the right slab, and unless someone already owns that
particular slab who would know and unless they had sent it off to PCGS
themselves how would they know whether they had the real one or not?



Colin Kynoch

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:16:45 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .
On 07 Feb 2004 17:34:53 GMT, espam
(WinWinscenario) wrote:

Can you point out a reliable, independent third party in the slabbing
game Bob?

I have read complaints about allof them in this ng.


Colin Kynoch

We're confating two separate concepts.

1) AFA authenticity, all of the majors are very reliable--not infallible,
but
very reliable about determining the authenticity of coins.

I have no problems with coins being authenticated, although I think if
you can't do it yourself, you shouldn't be buying the coin.

Would the same apply to collectors of autographs?

yep.

Diamonds?

Testing if a diamond is real or not isn't really that hard.

And I asked several jewellers how to tell what the various differences
were (the 4 C's) and how to ell before I bought one for my wife. I
then checked it over before purchasing it.



Impressionist paintings?

I wouldn't buy one unless I could tell if it was real or not, no.

We can't all be experts.

If you are going to take up a hooby, then it makes sense to become
expert in what you are collecting.

God forbid if we ever see Americans slabbing impressionist painings or
diamonds.

Are you saying that if one wants to
select coins for a type set he first must become qualified as a grader as
well as an expert in recognizing copies, counterfeits, altered coins in each
series, etc.?

If you are concerned about them being genuine, Yup.

I am looking at collecting Ancient Celtic coins.

Before I will spend one cent on buying one I will read as much
literature as I can get my hands on and seek out experts in the field
to find out how to know what I am purchasing is legitimate.

I will then only but coins I can look at myself before purchasing or
from dealers that have a guaranteed return policy, if the coin is
found to be fake.

If I was to do it any other way and purchased a fake unknowingly I
would consider it my own fault.


As much as most of us would like to have all of these skills,
it would hardly be practical.

Why not?

As for me, I usually buy the coin first. If
it really intrigues me, then I buy the book and use it as a reference to add
more coins in that series to my collection.

And if you purchase the coin first would it concern you if it was a
fake?

Or will you only purchase entombed coins?

Colin Kynoch

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:32:27 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
That is clearly the primary reason for slabbing in the US, the actual
coin is incidental.

the others are peripheral.

If you honestly believe that can you please explain the massive
differences in price between most MS66 and MS67 coins.

You couldn't tell the difference without magnification, so it is a
dollars thing. The only importance the coin has is determining how
big the differential is.

Colin Kynoch

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 23:31:02 -0600, "Chris S"
chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Colin Kynoch" wrote:
Why it has been good enough for them to collect coins without slabbing
since before America was discovered.

Just because Americans think something is a good thing doesn't make it
so.

I for one think the Europeans are too smart to go down the slabbing
road.

There's been much ado in this thread about the principle of slabbing and the
cleverness of those who do or don't. Economics , drive the slabbing market
more than values or intelligence.

The term is gambling, not economics.

In America, coins are more expensive (thus
a third-party opinion is worth more) and slabbing costs are lower (not only
as a percentage of coin cost, but also because the cost of doing business is
lower).

How many $100,000+ bronze/copper US coins exist?

For that matter how many would be worth more than $1,000 in say EF?

I suspect I could purchase an set of uncirculated twentieth century US
coins for less than I could a set of twentieth century Australian
coins (that is standard issue and not including the multitude of
varieties, only the various mint marks and years)


Thus, slabbing is a better value in the US than elsewhere. If the
European/Australian/whatever coin prices begin to look like US coin prices,
slabbing will emerge there.

Oh Please.

To purchase a set of Australian pennies/cents (for the twentieth
century in Choice UNC (approxx equivalent MS65) would cost $A388,669
or about $US 300,000

I'm guessing I would have quite a bit of change left over after buying
an equivalent US collection.



Conversely, if the American market declines or
costs in America go up, slabbing will wane here.

If people stop gambling on sigle point differences in the grades it
will wane.

Slabbing has been tried in Australia and the buyers voted, The
slabbers lasted about a year or so.

Colin Kynoch

"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 19:02:46 -0500, "Bruce Remick"
wrote:


"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
.. .


snip

And here I was thinking the ANA published quite detailed standards.

Colin Kynoch

Colin, it's apparent what you're getting at, but have you really looked
closely at the ANA grading standards for the various coin series?
Detailed,
you say? Arrange the following Lincoln Cent "detailed" ANA grading
criteria in the proper progressive order and you'll qualify as Grader
Emeritus! And these are just for circulated Lincolns. Talk about vague
and
confusing. Tackling the MS'es with the ANA criteria as a guide is much
more
of a challenge.

--Lines in wheat stalks are lightly worn but fully detailed.
--High points of wheat stalks are worn, but each line is clearly
defined.
--Most details are visible in the stalks. Top wheat lines are worn
but
separated
--High points of wheat stalks are lightly worn, but each line is
clearly
defined.
--Lines in wheat stalks are worn but plain and without weak spots.
--Traces of wear show in the wheat stalks.

OK here goes, and I don't have a current copy of the ANA grading
standards at home, and to be honest I only have a passing acquaintance
with wheat cents.


--Traces of wear show in the wheat stalks. (AU50)
--High points of wheat stalks are lightly worn, but each line is
clearly defined. (EF45)
--High points of wheat stalks are worn, but each line is clearly
defined. (EF40)
--Lines in wheat stalks are lightly worn but fully detailed. (VF30)
--Lines in wheat stalks are worn but plain and without weak spots.
(VF20)

From best quality to worst.

How did I go.


Colin, assuming you didn't peek at the book, I have to give you the Grader
Emeritus Award! Or at least the grade interpreter award. These particular
grading criteria have always been among the least definitive IMO for those
trying to differentiate the grades from VF to AU. Almost like five
different people wrote them and never compared notes before the printing.
Anyway, congratulations. I guess I still have a hard time agreeing that the
ANA guide provides detailed criteria for assigning a grade.

Bruce

Colin Kynoch wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:32:12 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:20:45 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:



As stated if slabbing was for authetication only it would be
acceptable. It isn't most slabbing is done to 'prove' infintesimal
differences in grade. If you don't like the grade crack it and send
it to be regraded till you do like the grade.

There have been any number of posters here who have claimed to do just
that.

What a joke either a coin is a grade or it isn't. You shouldn't be
able to play the grading lottery.

Why are you telling other people what they should and shouldn't be able to
do? If someone wants to take their disposable income and send a modern
mint product to PCGS 100 times until they give it an arbitrary MS70 who
cares?

It should come back the same grade every time.

The point is if you can get different grades, by sending the coin in
multiple times, it sort of defeats the purpose and compromises the
integrity of the grading process.

If someone wants to pay $5000 instead of the $50 it was worth
before; it may not make sense but why deny people the opportunity.

As Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

But why is there so much outcry at counterfeits in this group, when
another type of fraud is actively supported?

I think that's a good point, Colin. I think that's worthy of
discussion.

Hancock and Spanbauer's book on counterfeits (the one Reid lists in his
"Periodic Spewing" but apparently has not bothered to actually open)
says that misrepresented grades *are* a type of counterfeiting.

I thought that was extreme. I think that you are closer to the mark in
saying it's another variety of fraud.

If I'm sold a Morgan Dollar (raw or slabbed) and it turns out to have
been made at a place other than a US Mint, it's undeniably counterfeit.
If I bought it as an 1895-S and, in truth, it was an 1895 now *altered*
it appear to be an 'S', again, it's counterfeit. If it's truly an
1895-S, but the holder or slab calls it 'MS-63', but it shows, on
examination, to be harshly cleaned, hairlined, chemically enhanced in
appearance, is it a counterfeit? I don't think so. Misrepresented, but
not counterfeit. Fraud, but not a fake.

And here's where I tend to take your side of the picture about
slabbing/crackouts/minute grading differences and big price jumps.

Let's say it's a genuine 1895-S Morgan Dollar that is uncleaned, not
enhanced, and lives in a top tier slab marked 'MS-63'. That coin goes
for something like $3,500. I buy it, crack it out, resubmit it and this
time it comes back 'MS-64'. Now I can sell it, sight unseen for a
pretty decent price jump, perhaps 5 or 6 thousand dollars. The coin is
unchanged. Unchanged!

For this reason, I dislike the idea of buying sight unseen or
substituting another person's opinion of a grade (inherently subjective)
for my own. I do like the idea of a money-back guarantee of
authenticity on a frequently counterfeited/altered coin. I truly dislike
the idea of paying thousands of extra dollars for a one point jump in
the stated grade, no matter how 'expert' that opinion may claim to be.
And that's when a grading company *is* honest, giving it's best
evaluation and not engaged in a market manipulation as some of the lower
tier companies have been caught doing.

Is overgrading counterfeiting? Hancock and Spanbauer said 'Yes',
because the item is not what it claims itself to be. They seem to feel
that a grade is an inherent part of a collectible coin. I say 'No', the
identity of the coin is not in question, only it's condition, which is
subject to varying standards, interpretations, current tastes, eye of
the beholder, etc etc etc ad infinitum. I think authenticity is a
binary question. I think grade or condition is too complex to be
reliably quantified.

I just dislike it when these 'holdered grades' are taken as Gospel with
large price increments hanging in the balance. For Modern coins
especially, I think its hokum. PR-69 and PR-70 Silver Eagles and Modern
Commems? Commanding huge premiums? Pshaw. I think that's a sucker's
game. My West Point Commem is in it's original capsule, never
submitted, unslabbed. Looks perfect to me! Suits me fine. You want to
buy one in a slab marked PR-69 or PR-70 and pay hundreds of bucks for
it? Knock yourself out!

Alan
'not in the market'

On Wed, 11 Feb 2004 11:07:09 GMT, Alan & Erin Williams
wrote:

Colin Kynoch wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 17:32:12 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 23:20:45 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:



As stated if slabbing was for authetication only it would be
acceptable. It isn't most slabbing is done to 'prove' infintesimal
differences in grade. If you don't like the grade crack it and send
it to be regraded till you do like the grade.

There have been any number of posters here who have claimed to do just
that.

What a joke either a coin is a grade or it isn't. You shouldn't be
able to play the grading lottery.

Why are you telling other people what they should and shouldn't be able to
do? If someone wants to take their disposable income and send a modern
mint product to PCGS 100 times until they give it an arbitrary MS70 who
cares?

It should come back the same grade every time.

The point is if you can get different grades, by sending the coin in
multiple times, it sort of defeats the purpose and compromises the
integrity of the grading process.

If someone wants to pay $5000 instead of the $50 it was worth
before; it may not make sense but why deny people the opportunity.

As Barnum said there is a sucker born every minute.

But why is there so much outcry at counterfeits in this group, when
another type of fraud is actively supported?

I think that's a good point, Colin. I think that's worthy of
discussion.

Hancock and Spanbauer's book on counterfeits (the one Reid lists in his
"Periodic Spewing" but apparently has not bothered to actually open)
says that misrepresented grades *are* a type of counterfeiting.

Well both are types of fraud. they are both passing something off as
something it isn't.

I thought that was extreme. I think that you are closer to the mark in
saying it's another variety of fraud.


Thankyou.


If I'm sold a Morgan Dollar (raw or slabbed) and it turns out to have
been made at a place other than a US Mint, it's undeniably counterfeit.
If I bought it as an 1895-S and, in truth, it was an 1895 now *altered*
it appear to be an 'S', again, it's counterfeit. If it's truly an
1895-S, but the holder or slab calls it 'MS-63', but it shows, on
examination, to be harshly cleaned, hairlined, chemically enhanced in
appearance, is it a counterfeit? I don't think so. Misrepresented, but
not counterfeit. Fraud, but not a fake.

Clearly, and it is obvious that this occurs quite regularly if the
posts in this ng are to be believed.

And here's where I tend to take your side of the picture about
slabbing/crackouts/minute grading differences and big price jumps.

Let's say it's a genuine 1895-S Morgan Dollar that is uncleaned, not
enhanced, and lives in a top tier slab marked 'MS-63'. That coin goes
for something like $3,500. I buy it, crack it out, resubmit it and this
time it comes back 'MS-64'. Now I can sell it, sight unseen for a
pretty decent price jump, perhaps 5 or 6 thousand dollars. The coin is
unchanged. Unchanged!

For this reason, I dislike the idea of buying sight unseen or
substituting another person's opinion of a grade (inherently subjective)
for my own. I do like the idea of a money-back guarantee of
authenticity on a frequently counterfeited/altered coin. I truly dislike
the idea of paying thousands of extra dollars for a one point jump in
the stated grade, no matter how 'expert' that opinion may claim to be.
And that's when a grading company *is* honest, giving it's best
evaluation and not engaged in a market manipulation as some of the lower
tier companies have been caught doing.

I think to a lesser degree even companies like PCGS are guilty of this
sort of market manipulation.

A PCGS MS63 a couple of years ago can quite regularly come back MS64
now (at least that is what I have read here.) And I am assuming US
coins are like Australian coins and they don't improve their grade
with age.


Is overgrading counterfeiting? Hancock and Spanbauer said 'Yes',
because the item is not what it claims itself to be. They seem to feel
that a grade is an inherent part of a collectible coin. I say 'No', the
identity of the coin is not in question, only it's condition, which is
subject to varying standards, interpretations, current tastes, eye of
the beholder, etc etc etc ad infinitum. I think authenticity is a
binary question. I think grade or condition is too complex to be
reliably quantified.

I just dislike it when these 'holdered grades' are taken as Gospel with
large price increments hanging in the balance. For Modern coins
especially, I think its hokum. PR-69 and PR-70 Silver Eagles and Modern
Commems? Commanding huge premiums? Pshaw. I think that's a sucker's
game. My West Point Commem is in it's original capsule, never
submitted, unslabbed. Looks perfect to me! Suits me fine. You want to
buy one in a slab marked PR-69 or PR-70 and pay hundreds of bucks for
it? Knock yourself out!

I buy coins because I like the coin. I pay the price I consider fair
on what grade I think it is. If a company decides to have a crack at
the Aussie market I for one would not buy a coin in a slab on
principle, unless I liked the coin, couldn't find another quite like
it, and I would liberate it as soon as possible.

Colin Kynoch