APS working with ebay to crack down on fakes, reproductions etc.

I pointed this out to Alan Herbert. He said the
highest
he ever got was as editor of Coins Mag. I said he ought to know who to
call at
Krause to get compliance, but he did nothing that I know of.


You are making an assumption I think, that there is anything that can be
done about it.

I will not get POed, I will not get POed, I am not POed... calm relaxed...

Well, as I see it, the other choice is to believe that people like us are
helpless... Or perhaps that "people like *you*" are helpless, because I do not
play that.
Saying thaqt it is even possible that "nothing can be done" is heard only by my
hand, which is what you are talking to when you or anyone wants to intimate
that nothing can be done...


the trade papers as you call them, depend almost entirely on
dealer revenues for their revenues.

They also depend on the fact that no one has named them in a suit as a
defendant for publishing false and misleading advertising, like false ANA
credentials or other afiliations that they are not actually truthful and are
designed to mislead. They have also avoided being told about it by AGs accross
the country and by the FTC, etc. The mags are aware that the ANA rules require
a name and ANA number per the ANA bylaws. Now, if someone that gets ripped off
by one of those dealers that has any ANA mention in the ad and the buyer comes
after the publisher as well as the dealer, then the mags will watch it. Try
using Visa'a logo without permission. Not even a picture of a card will they
allow unauthorized or they sue.. and win...

For example, if AH sells items by using the reverse of an NGC slab with the ANA
logo, and someone is misled by it to his detriment, if the person's lawyer goes
for the deep pockets of the publisher, you can believe that ALL the mags will
quit letting dealers have ANA logos showing on NGC slabs unless they are using
the ANA's logo properly. Or do you differ on that?

I can't imagine what would convince
them to make any effort to enforce anything on their larger advertisers,
even if they wanted to.

Lemme see, if the AG of a state's mom gets ripped off by a company that has a 6
page ad and sells AUs as BUs and has standing orders to buy all the AUs they
can get... Maybe the mags do what is their best interests as affected by the
legal procedings... Think they would "want to" enforce anything then?


besides, I am not sure there is any real long term
benefit to such "policing" actions. A better long term approach is
collector education, including explaining to collectors how large dealers
manipulate the market

When the hobby becomes much more work than play, we all might as well quit.
That will be the day when I have to tell people that regisrty sets are
dangerous hype. I am sick of scam after scam after scam. The same people
perpetrate most of them, IMHO. Let's clean it up or the government will do it
for us, using the commerce clause. The authorities (probably Feds) are the ones
that brought this to the ANA and eBay, IIUC. How far is the Federal Government
from regulating us even more? They had several bills before congress in 1997 or
so, and most did not pass, IIRC. They know we are here, and in the past, they
have blamed collectors for hoarding and making coins scarce, etc. I do not
trust government to regulate us, and it might be the single biggest danger to
the value of each of our holdings (well, US citizens, anyway) Either we
co-operate and police ourselves or have it done for us, IMHO. Ebay is not going
to take much guff from the FBI or FTC before they make the rules themselves. I
suggest that the ANA do what it can and make it go smooth.

by th
eir promotions (such as registry sets, "treasure"
coins, etc.)

I think Eliasberg had the first registry set, or at least forshadowed it. Since
one person has to have a nicer coin than the next guy, there are always going
to be people that can pull out a whole set in which every coin is nicer than
what you have... This has been going on for some time, even though the various
slabbers have only recently realized the extra market in it for them; PCGS gets
people to crossover from NGC or whoever so they get a slabbing fee for a coin
that is already slabbed. All that is really lost is one slabbing fee, as far as
I am concerned. So long as people want it, then they will get it and the price
it commands will reflect what the seller and buyer agree on.. Also, if people
continue to want these sets, then they will hold value. So long as the
individual coins are valuable, the set will be too. If there is a coin market
collapse, then whether you have a registry set or only a few coins, you are
going to lose some of the premium you paid, maybe all of it. There is nothing
new in that concept that I can see... But maybe I am blind...
I see registry sets as about as dangerous as a tempest in a teapot compared to
other abuses. People are paying for these items with disposable income. If not,
then that is what we should be pointing out:

DO NOT RISK ANY MONEY ON COINS THAT YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO LOSE.

(That was a publice service announcement)

No one has a monopoly. Compare that to diamonds, for example... or major league
baseball where there are monoploies, or nearly so. People do not need to buy
coins, or diamonds or go to baseball games. These are luxury items and to say
that there is something unfair about hyping high grade stuff any more than
diamond sellers tell you that the better the diamond, the more it costs... Or
the better seat at the game is worth more... You only get a ticket stub when
you leave a game. Do you want a high grade one or an economy diamond or seat at
the game? There is always CZ if you want the look for less... And there used to
be a hole in the fence to watch the game for free... IOW, I am saying that the
people buying and assembling registry sets are getting their money's worth, at
least; 1. No one holds a gun to their heads and 2. Status symbols cost more
than anything else... and 3. I sure like Bob Rudd's set of Early Commems...
Explain how really freaking worthless that sucker is and how he should dump it
to me for like $1500 and how bad a beating I will take on it for me so that I
can steal it, because I want it. And persuade Ira and Anaconda too. They are
about to loise their shorts unless they dump for like a penny on a dollar..
today... And tell them they would be wise to finance it too, if I can't pay
cash for it all... at zero interest for 36 months... So I can save then from
the screwing they are about to get when the register sets are all being thrown
away or used to buy groceries... C'mon Bob, these people are not tying up all
their life savings on registry sets, and if they are, maybe it is better then
buying lotto tickets and drinking cheap gin... That reminds me... Is the liquor
store open yet? Ok, I gotta go. I just hope the Beefeater is still on sale...
and where is my "lucky number" list?

Gotta go... but first, while the shwinn warms up:

Further, most of these sets are totally
jaw-dropping-drool-until-the-guys-is-the-white-coats-come-get-me georgeous. If
people are gong to buy these coins, why not have a registry set? Also, some
stupid thieves may sometime sell a known set and get caught because of it...
Maybe not, but you never know until some fool does it. Bottom line, AFAIAC,
registry sets aren't any more dangerous than unregistered sets... If someone
likes a set of MS 70 eagles, so what? I see people with those Elvis Plates and
all manner of knick knacks around their houses... Little chrystal unicorns...
C.mon.. who has a set of the on a glass shelf? None of the uys, I bet... Who
has toy cars? Harv? Comic Books? Harv? Beatles Albums in the original shrink
wrap? Harv... again... Ok, so we can see that the evil that men do lives after
them... vicariously through Harv... No wait...

We all collect what we like. I think that if people do not use the food money
for coins (except me, I need to go on a diet, but that dog of mine is starting
to look tasty) then there won't be problems. If people do spend the rent on
coins, then it is like gambling or anything else taken to excess.

Anyone remember the Barney Miller episode, circa 1979, where the guy and his
wife had a domestic dispute because he was buying up gold with all the rent
money? I still can never forget Harris turning and saying to Barney: "But
Barney! He is buying up all the gold and not leaving NONE for nobody else!"
I guess some of us want to be that guy...



and in other ways, and make collectors understand that no
matter what the dealer or grader says, there is no way to determine the
future value of any coin, or whether
it will grade the same down the road

I agree. I do not want an ANA logo on a coin whose grade might not be correct.
Therefore I do not want an ANA logo on any slab.

One thing the ANA could do right now is to kill off the "coins as
investments" scam. They should have a policy that any ANA member that
promotes this idea in any way should be booted permanently right out of the
organization.


I am against promoting coins as an investment... I am certainly in favor of
educating consumers, and since these are luxury items, one has to realize that
whether you buy those plates on TV or Beanie Babies or whatever, you are wise
to only but items that you like and for reasons that make sense to you. Buying
something because you think it is worth more to someone else is a good way to
get stuck with garbage. How exactly to teach that lesson? Ask them to try to
sell a recent purchase to a third party and then they can see how they did.
Maybe it will sink in... And yes, toss out the 'investment' sellers... As it
is, if you start talking investment while selling coins or bullion, there's
loads of disclosures the FTC requires, IIUC. But if the FTC gets too many
complaints... here comes the congressional legistation...

AH collectibles sells NGC slabs with the ANA logo on them,
and he
was kicked out for failure to answer a complaint and DH resigned... But
they
can still have a picture of an ANA logo in their ads... After all Eric and
Barry Stuppler and others did, they can still sell ANA logoed coins. What
a
kick in the head.

I'm not sure how you can prevent someone from selling a piece of property
they own, regardless of whose logo is on it.

The problem is that the logo is on the slab, and I have a problem with that. No
logo on the slab and they cannot do that. They should not be able to do it now.
They can only do it because the ANA allows the logo to be put on slabs...

Besides, I would think you
would prefer such people to be selling NGC brand plastic rather than some
brand of plastic you don't approve of.


Uhhhh, what? I am against the logo being on any slab, unless the ANA actually
authenticates it, and I do not evan the ANA to grade ANY coins, unless as part
of arbitrating a dispute. I do not want the ANA to be obligated to side with
NGC or any other grading company. DH and AH selling coins? I want that stopped.
Approve of plastic? Umm, no. I buy the coins, not the slabs... Unless it is a
proof set or the like, in which case I may be concerned with the packaging as
well as the coins...
Basically, I think collectors should know how to grade and should buy only
coins they want to own. The slab it is in should help protect it and should be
a guarantee of authenticity, but today's grade might not be tomorrow's grade,
as you correctly point out above. I disapprove of ACG on the fact that they
slabbed four or more counterfeits as genuine. Three is the limit for me. I do
not care what else he did, but he is still operating like nothing happened
after slabbing four counterfeits. That is just what he admitted to, and there
are likely many more from what I hear and read. Do I want to see ads with an
ANA logo from him? No. Is the ANA doing anything about it? What a crock; the
ANA is afraid to partner with ebay but has its logo plastered all over anyone's
ad that can come up with an NGC slab. The advertiser does not have to obey ANA
rules, either. Try selling a stamp in violation of the APS rules on eBay and
see what happens...

Meantime, slabs do make coin trading a liuttle closer to liquid; you can sell
them more easily because buyers have more confidence in a third party graded
coin.

As for the magazines, health and computer, I was answering Reid, and I am not
really inerested in the sidetrack; he brought it up...


Follow the money IMHO.

OTOH - what if the dealers just stopped putting the logo and ANA number in
the ad altogether?

They won't. They _know_ that trade association letters after their names are
expected by many in the buying public... Whether they know what the letters
mean or not.

would that be any better? I don't see how the inclusion
or lack thereof of the logo and member number is going to make any
difference to anyone buying coins.

Then why do so many people do it? Branding is why. When you look for McDonalds,
you look for yellow arches. Some do it with coins. ISTR that the Blackbook's
early chapters recommended looking for a PNG sign and failing that, an ANA logo
b/c PNG is exclusive and there are but 200 members or so... Anyway, I can tell
you where my doctors went to med school because I saw their diplomas. A few
years ago, there was news about several "doctors" that didn;t have licences or
diplomas... so I check... Do you? For $300+ an hour, I expect to see
credentials. Some things matter to other people more than they matter to you or
me, and that is what makes trhe world go around. My primary care Physician says
that most people think more about their money and wallet than they think about
their health, sadly. So, if you did not see MD after a doctor's name, would
that bother you at all? You bet, because you are used to seeing it. It is more
subliminal, and so long as the other doctors call them doctor, you don't think
much about it... But they call first year med students 'Doctor' all the time in
hospitals, but they do not mention to you that they are not even an intern
yet... Anyway, the point is that you do not really notice the ANA letters or
logo, but they are often there. Don, Frank and many other sellers do use the
logo/ANA name. And, since an advertiser could use the space for something else,
why waste it with a "useless" logo?

I personally do not care one bit if the
people at the coin show are ANA members, I have never asked, nor do most
display any logos or member numbers, although I have seen a few do so, and I
do not even look for such information in an ebay listing.


Many others are looking for it... And I am encouraging them to look for it...


No one has ever asked for my ANA member number on the few auctions where I
have sold stuff, and quite frankly, I have never thought putting my ANA
number in an auction would have any beneficial effect so have not done so.


Well, it costs you zero extra to put it in there. Let's see if this makes
sense:
You look in the yellow pages for a diamond seller. Do you want a GIA certified
gemologist's appraisal or will one from just anyone do? For fifty dollar pair
of diamond studs 5 points a piece, you prolly do not care. For a 3 carat
internally flawless D color solitaire, you prolly want an acknowledged,
certified pro's opinion.
Do you pay more to have a certified mechanic do a job on your car than you pay
the guy down the street who has a grease pit and does oil changes and minor
work cheap? Do you expect the movers to be affiliated with the BBB and have the
other necessary and proper affiliations? Do you never look for trade
association membership from anyone?? Are credentials meaningless to you? I can
assure you that putting in an ANA logo will not hurt much. The problem is that
you have to obey the ANA rules while anyone else can just say "no returns" and
"I don't know how to grade coins at all" and the like. They do not have to
worry about cleanings or other problems... Just put up a scan and go. No
headaches, as is, no returns. So, yes, I can see why some people would avoid
using the logo on ebay. It won't happen in mags tho. They will not quit unless
the ANA makes them. (Very unlikely unless someone sues the ANA.)
Experienced advertisers everywhere know that trade membership status is
desireable and even makes a difference in whether or not they sell the coin or
get the extra bid on a nice item. Auctioneers often have lists of trade assocs
after their name. Real estate brokers always have something after their name,
even if they never even got a GED, much less a college degree... Because people
expect it from a pro. If you are selling low grade or problem coins and
proof/mint sets and misc cheaper stuff, then it likely doesn't matter much. You
aren't selling only $500 coins and up to say $100,000+ routinely, especially
unslabbed are you? I mean, the higher the price, the more people want to
concern themselves with returns and such. For a few common circ Merc dimes or a
roll of state Qs, I do not think it matters much. For some of the stuff I buy,
it matters that I am dealing with a professional; sometimes not. I forget every
once in a while. Remind me to ask for an ANA number, but I think we are going
to the system where all ebay sellers are going to have to follow ANA
guidelines, anyway... that will mean a flurry of activity until the same old
rip-offs selling counterfeits by the hundred and their ilk are removed
permanently. You do not want to use your trade association status (that you pay
dues for) to bolster your credibility? Ok fine... It is your choice. Why you
wouldn't want the ANA logo is what befuddles me...
Ok, that ugly rendition of a Peace buck was no good, but the lamp or the NGC
eagle... something...
If it was worthless, people would not pay for the ad space to publish it...

Now I gotts to go. I'm spoda be over ta the sto, getting the lotto and the
gin... Sto opens in six minutes...

Outty
'not my belly button'

(MorganCoin1) adds....

I went and looked at ebay's stamp rules and recomendations, and IMO, we could
use a similar set of standards at ebay,

Sam, Sam, Sam....

The provided link gets you to eBay somewhere, period. After clicking other
links on other pages and entering stamps in the search window, I found the
magic APA references. Why the Jim Preamble to your link? Because Sam, it just
goes to show what a PITA "more" toothless regs have become in a world of
protecting idiots from themselves.

Here is the leading statement from eBay:

"eBay reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to remove any stamp or stamp
related item listed on its site and refund the associated listing fee if we
believe that the listing is inconsistent with the code of conduct set out by
the American Philatelic Society, or inconsistent with eBay's goals of promoting
the hobby and maintaining a safe trading environment."

Now Sam. What does any of that "really" mean to the poor slob that just bought
a bogus inverted 3 cent zeppellin? Not a damn thing, that's what. The sale is
complete, the funds exchange hands and more often than not, end of that ripoff
and on to others, with the fool no wiser.

Oooh and eBay will refund the "associated listing fee", cuz we all know the
hornets nest that would ensue if they didn't, eh?

Let's toss in the preemptive factor; buyer is tipped to nonsense before end of
sale. What are the buyers options, assuming buyer has half a brain, but if so,
probably would have done the upfront homework before buying?

Let us ponder, shall we?

"If":

1.) He/she has a clue who the APA is or even cares,

2.) He/she can begin to navigate or find anything relating to the APA within
the multitude of pages of regs tucked into eBay html somewhere,

3.) Where he/she would find a link to the APA code of conduct, which as you may
guess, is as toothless in all its rotund vagueness as any other corporate
policy conjured up while sitting on the throne, post that half gallon of
chugged Starbucks every morning,

4.) Or....he/she "may" find the Authentication page which does no more
than.....provide hot links to a dozen or so organizations, from Beanie Bears to
the APA to Fanciers of Mom's Mabley Collectorama,

5.) Upon clicking any said link, he/she will be assured to wind up in a fully
glazed state of retardomania, still within minutes/hours of end of auction,
still ****ed and still mumbling out loud about how eBay sux and he/she really
hates stamps.

Meanwhile, while the above drama is being played out simultaneously every
minute of the day with hundreds of people either thinking they're being
screwed, or making sure someone is looking out for them so they don't get
screwed, eBay is doing exactly WHAT, proactively? Best as I can see....zero,
zip, nada.

Which, BTW, is exactly no surprise to me as they own the only show in town. Oh
sure, when pressed to do so, they put up yet more web pages with ominous
impotent legalese and pretend to swaddle the ignorant with patronizing banter,
but what's really being done? IOW, if eBay doesn't care, nuttins gonna happen.

And further, why do you think the ANA wants any part of that? Isn't one reg as
good as another in a world of honest sellers? In the alternate paradise, what
difference does another shingle make? Can I say zero, zip, nada often enough?

One more time.....

eBay "is and can only be" exactly what it's always purported to be, a conduit
between buyers and sellers, period. An electronic garage sale w/o card tables.
It's policing functions can and should but unfortunately don't, extend to the
blatantly fraudulent and misleading auctions taking place in dozens of
catagories 24/7. Ones dealing with S&H out of proportion to sale, ones dealing
with nebulous listing language, etc., but NOT ones in which ANY authentication
activities occur whatsoever. EOM, again.

Will any of the above, assuage, placate or soothe the hysterical,
time-on-their-hands professional stay-at-home-glued-to-PC ignoramus internet
shopper? Not a chance....

But if you think for one nanosecond more regs tossed at this or any situation
will make a difference, you should get out of law and into the path of an
oncoming train for a quick reality check (Not really Sam. I'm just seeing if
you read this far before falling into full blown retardomania).

Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

In article ,
says...
In article , jstone9352
says...
The APS (main stamp collecting organization in the US) is working with Ebay
in cracking down on fake, facsimilie and reproduction stamps. Stamps
have to be clearly marked as such on the stamp itself.

Of course you can see what I am leading to. - If the APS can work with
Ebay
on cracking down on stamp fraud why can't the ANA do the same
with coins?


I already asked Gary Lewis, and got kind of a non-answer to the effect
that they're working on it and I should see something written on the
subject in the next six months. (I take this to be a bet that I'll
forget by then.)
--
Chrysta Wilson

I went and looked at ebay's stamp rules and recomendations, and IMO, we could
use a similar set of standards at ebay, and ebay would benefit too (from
increased coin revenue, IMHO):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/index_pop...s=topics.html&

Ebay sellers have to abide by APS rules. Now, if ebay sellers had to abide by
ANA rules, then the ANA elections might mean something if someone wants to
change an ebay rule... Anyway, it surprises who that the ANA cannot just use
almost the same ebay format as APS and have its name (ANA) all over the place
when anyone wants to sell a coin or numismatic item? Can I see a show of hands
of who is surprised about the ANA dragging its feet on this? Yeah... Nothing
new from the ANA, unless it is a logo that won't work or a decision to remove
and replace the chairperson that actually had to go to bat to protect
consumers...



A straight answer from Gary Lewis??????? Gold will hit $800.
first.


--
I hope we can all be good neighbors online!

Bob Rudd wrote:
A straight answer from Gary Lewis??????? Gold will hit $800. first.

Say it ain't so, Bob! Say it ain't so!

Larry

(MorganCoin1) adds....

I went and looked at ebay's stamp rules and recomendations, and IMO, we
could
use a similar set of standards at ebay,

Sam, Sam, Sam....

The provided link gets you to eBay somewhere, period. After clicking other
links on other pages and entering stamps in the search window, I found the
magic APA references.

Sorry. I copied and pasted the link faithfully, but it didn't work as planned.
My bad.

Why the Jim Preamble to your link? Because Sam, it just
goes to show what a PITA "more" toothless regs have become in a world of
protecting idiots from themselves.


Ya know, there is no helping those that want to shoot themselves in the foot.

Here is the leading statement from eBay:

"eBay reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to remove any stamp or
stamp
related item listed on its site and refund the associated listing fee if we
believe that the listing is inconsistent with the code of conduct set out by
the American Philatelic Society, or inconsistent with eBay's goals of
promoting
the hobby and maintaining a safe trading environment."

Now Sam. What does any of that "really" mean to the poor slob that just
bought
a bogus inverted 3 cent zeppellin? Not a damn thing, that's what. The sale is
complete, the funds exchange hands and more often than not, end of that
ripoff
and on to others, with the fool no wiser.


Ok so I don't know Jack about phila, philla, philat.... stamp collecting...
But, as it is, when a counterfeit coin is listed, even when the dipstick seller
says: "These are fakes from China." Ebay lets the auction go on. The new method
will allow people to complain, just like before... but the new method means
that ebay will check with the ANA and remove the 'coin' and so the fool is
protected from himself because the item is not listed anymore. Or at least that
is my understanding. As it is, you complain, ebay does zip.

Oooh and eBay will refund the "associated listing fee", cuz we all know the
hornets nest that would ensue if they didn't, eh?


Well, listing fees on a few bogos are not of much consequence to ebay... While
a seller dumping fakes might well need the money... to list at yahoo...

Let's toss in the preemptive factor; buyer is tipped to nonsense before end
of
sale. What are the buyers options,
assuming buyer has half a brain, but if
so,
probably would have done the upfront homework before buying?


Since not everyone can detect counterfeits like Bob Julian or Ira, I think that
a 'heads up' would be very helpful. We have seen time and again, these fakes
and the sptters of the fakes not able to do anything but wriute the seller and
hope they remove it or making up fake ebay handles, bidding and retracting and
a bunch of other methods that waste time and possibly cause the good ones to
risk losing their account because of auction intereference.

Let us ponder, shall we?

"If":

1.) He/she has a clue who the APA is or even cares,


They seem to...

2.) He/she can begin to navigate or find anything relating to the APA within
the multitude of pages of regs tucked into eBay html somewhere,


Ok, that is a big problem. I can't find the APA stuff two times in a row,
either...

3.) Where he/she would find a link to the APA code of conduct, which as you
may
guess, is as toothless in all its rotund vagueness as any other corporate
policy conjured up while sitting on the throne, post that half gallon of
chugged Starbucks every morning,


Yeah that's why I don't drink that overpriced dreck from Tarbux. A&P instant
decaf for me... lol I think that the fact they can have the offending fake
stamp removed is worlds better than we have it in numismat, numis... coins...

4.) Or....he/she "may" find the Authentication page which does no more
than.....provide hot links to a dozen or so organizations, from Beanie Bears
to
the APA to Fanciers of Mom's Mabley Collectorama,


Eeeewww. The link overload is a problem. It is my hope that the coins link can
be found... An overhaul of ebay's site organization is long overdue.

5.) Upon clicking any said link, he/she will be assured to wind up in a fully
glazed state of retardomania, still within minutes/hours of end of auction,
still ****ed and still mumbling out loud about how eBay sux and he/she really
hates stamps.


It is a problem, but to do nothing and try nothing proactive is worse, IMHO.

Meanwhile, while the above drama is being played out simultaneously every
minute of the day with hundreds of people either thinking they're being
screwed, or making sure someone is looking out for them so they don't get
screwed,

Yes, the worst part is any false sense of security that comes when people think
that the tools is for other people to watch out for you when you really have to
watch out for number one... No lulling here... The thing is, as I pointed out,
is that those who spot a fake will have some way to have it verified and
removed... At least that will likely cut into fraud a bit. Once someone buys
and sends the money, it is much harder to rescind the deal... That is why I
favor the proactive... but not if the buyers start thinking "Hey, ebay is
taking care of this... the coin/stamp must be genuine, or ebay would not allow
it...

eBay is doing exactly WHAT, proactively? Best as I can see....zero,
zip, nada.


Well, they are willing to remove items (and the listing fee is a non-starter
for me). Now they won't remove anything, even if Rick Snow tells them the 1856
FE cent is a fake, even if it is 3 inches accross... Meantime, I have listed
animated films and some old vinyl records before, and certain categories at
ebay had extra warnings about putting up unauthorized copies, etc. The exact
warnings, I don't 'member, and it was over two years ago, so the warnigs have
likely changed, but part of it had to do with losing your account for it. If
these same old peole are NARU and cannot sell the counterfeits, I think there
will be a reduction in their appearence on ebay. at the same time, people will
(hopefully) be more willing to turn in offenders because ebay is finally doing
something.

Which, BTW, is exactly no surprise to me as they own the only show in town.

Hey, I applaude them (ebay) doing anything... They ANA and Ebay are the only
real players in their fields... The ANA don't do squat and are holding back on
this, AFAIAC.

Oh
sure, when pressed to do so, they put up yet more web pages with ominous
impotent legalese and pretend to swaddle the ignorant with patronizing
banter,
but what's really being done? IOW, if eBay doesn't care, nuttins gonna
happen.


Having had to file for refunds with ebay and PAypal before, I can tell you that
you have a chance, especially if you pay via CC, but even if not, PP and ebay
will instigate... er investigate and maybe you get your money back. That won't
happen if you buy a fake rolex in Manhatten...

And further, why do you think the ANA wants any part of that?

No, I seriously doubt the ANA leaders want to do anything good for the hobby.
The biggest mistake they have made is not calling me and offering me a huge lot
of genuine money to see the ship cleaned up.

Isn't one reg
as
good as another in a world of honest sellers?

Yes it is. Unfortunately, not all sellers are virtuous, and we both know it. So
that it is clear, the regs should (read: must) bbe posted conspicuously and
when you go to sell coins, a screen should be there to warn that if you
fraudulently offer counterfeit, the SS and FBI will inquire. Maybe it owrks,
maybe not. A few arrests would go far to help. Neither ebay nor the ANA or APA
has power to do that and unless and until the Feds do something, the best we
can do is try to prevent the sale, as many here have done in the past.

In the alternate paradise, what
difference does another shingle make? Can I say zero, zip, nada often enough?


Enough shingles build a roof... (Sometimes I am glad I am 3000 miles away so
you can't throw anything at my eternal optimism... lol)

One more time.....

eBay "is and can only be" exactly what it's always purported to be, a conduit
between buyers and sellers, period. An electronic garage sale w/o card
tables.
It's policing functions can and should but unfortunately don't, extend to the
blatantly fraudulent and misleading auctions taking place in dozens of
catagories 24/7.

Ok, let's take 'policing functions' out of the equation. If they refuse to
allow known fakes and frauds, that would be all we can ask. Well, also to
investigate and to NARU the same old people that do the same old stuff over and
over... Beyond that, if someone is selling a stolen or counterfeit item, then
the police should do the police work...

Ones dealing with S&H out of proportion to sale, ones
dealing
with nebulous listing language, etc., but NOT ones in which ANY
authentication
activities occur whatsoever. EOM, again.


Ebay is in the position to deal with minor listing infractions and violations
of its rules; the police do the stuff with dangerous criminals... like
felons... I would like to see the feds take down a few more shills, personally.
There are a few big ones out there...

Will any of the above, assuage, placate or soothe the hysterical,
time-on-their-hands professional stay-at-home-glued-to-PC ignoramus internet
shopper? Not a chance....


Hey! We could go over to the Coin Vault and really waste some money.

But if you think for one nanosecond more regs tossed at this or any situation
will make a difference,

Look, we can give it a chance... If it doesn't work better than the "nothing"
we have now, it is no biggy to drop the pages and pages of drivel... If any
part of it has merit, we can work on it... or rather, ebay can work on it...

you should get out of law and into the path of an
oncoming train for a quick reality check (Not really Sam. I'm just seeing if
you read this far before falling into full blown retardomania).


Heck no... I am the 'long poster' around here... I actually have to try to keep
my posts short... A few times, I have run out of room and the characters stop,
even though I do not stop typing. Kinda scary the first few times... I pity the
fools that read all my writing...lol I have trouble editing it all... Why do
you think I post infrequently? I have to let my fingers heal between
editorials...
Be well, Jim.

Bob Rudd wrote:
A straight answer from Gary Lewis??????? Gold will hit $800. first.

Say it ain't so, Bob! Say it ain't so!

Larry


It is so... But I think gold will hit $950 first...

MorganCoin1 wrote:



Yes, the worst part is any false sense of security that comes when people think
that the tools is for other people to watch out for you when you really have to
watch out for number one... No lulling here... The thing is, as I pointed out,
is that those who spot a fake will have some way to have it verified and
removed... At least that will likely cut into fraud a bit. Once someone buys
and sends the money, it is much harder to rescind the deal... That is why I
favor the proactive... but not if the buyers start thinking "Hey, ebay is
taking care of this... the coin/stamp must be genuine, or ebay would not allow
it...


So is that a Sears poncho or is that a Mexican poncho? MMMMmm! No foolin?

Alan
'Debra Kadabra'

(MorganCoin1) responds in part with....

The new method will allow people to complain, just like before...

But this assumes the person getting screwed has his/her eyes open and a
heartbeat. Who's spoda be checking those listings in a proactive manner, as all
the usual cadre of hysterics postulating this preponderance to RCC so often
ask?

but the new method means that ebay will check with the ANA and remove the
'coin' and so the fool is protected from himself because the item is not listed
anymore.

And Sam........All of that sounds warm and fuzzy, but let's do the math.

Scenario #1
Auction runs 3 days, ends at 2 AM EST and buyer informs eBay at 11 PM the night
before, that sumpin stinks. Whom at ebay contacts whom at the ANA to get a
reading on the coin, huh? And what level of ability must buyer display to get
action?

Assuming the above is not an issue, the ANA rep reports back to eBay that the
coin photos are too poor to authenticate, but "if" they had to guess, the coin
is phony.

eBay stops auction. Coin is genuine. Seller sues eBay. Buyer is out a deal.
Great formula, huh?

Scenario #2
7 day auction, ends during the weekday hours, but this time listing is sans
photo.
eBay will do what?

a.) Contact seller and demand a photo?

b.) Demand seller ship it somewhere?

c.) Put seller in touch with ANA rep and have ANA quiz seller?

d.) Declare all coin auctions must have photo listing, but first cancel auction
on grounds that.....? See above; seller sues. Buyer is ****ed, because this
time it really was the 16th (?) 1804 silver dollar.

Scenario #3
The most likely. Seller posts bogus BS auction with worst pic imaginable,
astronomical S&H terms, ships in a standard business envelope w/o reinforcement
and sends wrong coin.

Potential buyer is protected how? Don't tell me they don't and won't "think"
that they're immune from getting screwed, cuz they do and will. Especially
after all the PR hoopla about the ANA working with ebay to prevent fraud.

Go do a MOS interview with the stamp geeks now that the APA is attached to
eBay. Nary a one of them will understand that the alliance will only "maybe"
help them get their money back or at best, NARU the seller. Whoop de do.

eBay can do more now, but they must want to (read in their best interest $$$
wise) and any enforcement has to be limited to the blatantly obvious, remote
from the specifics of any or all hobbies, but OTOH, germane to all.

Anything else is simply pie in the sky.

Always here for my fellow syngraphist or oenophile.
--=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=----=*=--

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 16:17:12 -0400, Chrysta Wilson
is alleged to have written:

In article , jstone9352
says...
The APS (main stamp collecting organization in the US) is working with Ebay
in cracking down on fake, facsimilie and reproduction stamps. Stamps
have to be clearly marked as such on the stamp itself.

Of course you can see what I am leading to. - If the APS can work with Ebay
on cracking down on stamp fraud why can't the ANA do the same
with coins?


I already asked Gary Lewis, and got kind of a non-answer to the effect
that they're working on it and I should see something written on the
subject in the next six months. (I take this to be a bet that I'll
forget by then.)


There's a shock. Make a note in your calendar to ask 6 months from now.

My Bet: We'll see nothing substantive until the next ANA election...if then.

Bruce

ANA 162074

On 27 Oct 2003 01:16:49 GMT, (MorganCoin1) is alleged to
have written:

Bob Rudd wrote:
A straight answer from Gary Lewis??????? Gold will hit $800. first.

Say it ain't so, Bob! Say it ain't so!

Larry


It is so... But I think gold will hit $950 first...

I think they will be giving gold away as junk on the streets before we get a
substantive, public answer from Gary Lewis.

I would like to be proven wrong here.

Bruce

ANA 162074