APS working with ebay to crack down on fakes, reproductions etc.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 09:45:31 -0400, Bruce Hickmott
wrote:

I saw a post where someone implied the Exec Director was likely behind this. I
disagree, he's just following orders. And those orders likely come from Gary
Lewis.

Which means we'll never know why, as Gary has shown tremendous reluctance to
discuss his ANA actions and decisions here or anywhere. Perhaps his position is
justified, even wise. But we'll never know.

Gary Lewis was very vocal in this newsgroup promoting himself when he
was running for office, indicating what he would do and so on,
positioning himself as being proconsumer, and as far as I know he's
been completely silent since. All he has done, again as far as I know,
is demote the one person on the ANA board who has shown any propensity
to be proconsumer, Barry Stuppler.

--

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Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

Gary Lewis was very vocal in this newsgroup promoting himself when he
was running for office, indicating what he would do and so on,


As I recall, he had no concrete platform whatsoever, Reid. He was 'In favor of
the mission statement' or somesuch drivel. As if it was an issue or
something... Google it or simply pay attention next election and see if you can
find ANY coherent platforms...

On 24 Oct 2003 15:27:23 GMT, (MorganCoin1) is alleged to
have written:

Gary Lewis was very vocal in this newsgroup promoting himself when he
was running for office, indicating what he would do and so on,


As I recall, he had no concrete platform whatsoever, Reid. He was 'In favor of
the mission statement' or somesuch drivel. As if it was an issue or
something... Google it or simply pay attention next election and see if you can
find ANY coherent platforms...


My recollection as well. It was very difficult to get him to address specific
questions substantively, if indeed we ever succeeded.

I've still got some of those questions, if Gary or any board member should ever
get the free time to respond publically.

Bruce (Not holding my breath)

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On 24 Oct 2003 15:27:23 GMT, (MorganCoin1) wrote:



clipped


Still, the whole thing stinks. It just reinforces the notion that the
ANA exists to promote the interests of dealers as opposed to
collectors. These interest mostly coincide but not always.


I am amazed that anyone would believe otherwise.

--

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Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

The ANA membership requirement
for them
to do this is a lot of BS as far as I'm concerned. It seems a big
waste of
the ANA's talent in counterfeit detection not to do this.


Makes me sick to think that the talent and skill as well as the ANA library is
going to waste here, when the ANA could partner up and bring in new members,
and really more importantly, new coin collectors (Paper money and other
numismatics' collectors too) because any advertisement by ebay that point
towards coins is going to send some bidiots to coins and some will last and
learn. This is a chance to make the hobby grow a little. This isn't Ned's
Auction House and Gasateria, this is eBay, and they are hot now. I expect a
great winter season as people avoid the news and shop on ebay... 'twould be
nice if we could get some market share switching from plasma TVs to
numismatics... sigh As you say, the worst is the waste of the ANA resources
and knowledge when ebay and the bidders could use it and when it would reflect
well on the hobby to have some 'coin specific' enforcement of numismatic
rules...

Dagnabit! Sometimes this ANA syndrome (whoops, that opportunity got by us...
again...) is soooo frustrating... I ain't telling you anything you don't know
there, though... I expect that we will be looking at a partnership that doesn't
materialize. I can live with it if we miss, but what happens when ACG becomes
the new official trading partner with eBay? The horror! I will sooner do the
"after the fact" thing and the ANA can just have me and some others train up
some arbitrators... or something... It is better than nothing... And it is a
foot in the door, even if it costs the ANA some money, it isn't like we cannot
afford some seed money for this important endeavor. We simply must step up and
take what we can here, IMHO.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2003 21:43:30 -0500, "Bob Peterson"
wrote:

Still, the whole thing stinks. It just reinforces the notion that the
ANA exists to promote the interests of dealers as opposed to
collectors. These interest mostly coincide but not always.

I am amazed that anyone would believe otherwise.

Why does this amaze you? Is it inevitable that the ANA should be
dealer-driven? How much of ANA's funding comes from dealers vs.
collectors? I don't know any of the details here, but my guess, only a
guess, is that because there are so many more collectors, more funding
comes from them.

What's more, there are lots of other industries that have much
stronger consumer protection. The two I'm most familiar with are
computers and healthcare. If the equivalent of the abuses with the
bottom-feeding coin grading services happened in computers or
healthcare, as just one example, they would be immediately exposed in
the trade and consumer publications that cover these industries.

--

Email me at (delete "remove this")

Coin Collecting: Consumer Guide: http://rg.ancients.info/guide
Glomming: Coin Connoisseurship: http://rg.ancients.info/glom
Bogos: Counterfeit Coins: http://rg.ancients.info/bogos

f the equivalent of the abuses with the
bottom-feeding coin grading services happened in computers or
healthcare, as just one example, they would be immediately exposed in
the trade and consumer publications that cover these industries.

So, when I was pointing out that the trade publications in numismatics allow
logo violators to prosper, (and John Stone was too) did you make sure that
trade rags you are with were clean and free of advertisers that were not
willing to put a valid ANA name and number in their ad with the ANA logo? Try
making a complaint against a member that does not provide both a name and a
number.

The course dealing with the advertisers by the trade papers are part of the
current problem, IMHO. I pointed this out to Alan Herbert. He said the highest
he ever got was as editor of Coins Mag. I said he ought to know who to call at
Krause to get compliance, but he did nothing that I know of.

It is prolly a time for a check of NN, CW and the others... but I refuse to
read them because they do not promote or insist upon ANA logo compliance. Of
course, the ANA itself just really messed it up and changed the logo... to
what, we don't know... First, it was to that peace dollar thingy, then some
crescent with a date on it or something... Who knows? So it is impossible to
tell who is a member. And then, NGC gets to slap a (recognizable) ANA logo on
its slabs... AH collectibles sells NGC slabs with the ANA logo on them, and he
was kicked out for failure to answer a complaint and DH resigned... But they
can still have a picture of an ANA logo in their ads... After all Eric and
Barry Stuppler and others did, they can still sell ANA logoed coins. What a
kick in the head.

Umm, tell me Reid, is that how they run health care and computer industries?
The coin trade papers need a shake up too. It is an industry-wide problem.
Lemme know when you get a grip on how much there is to do to right the ANA
ship. Trade papers... ha.
Why can't the Numismatist have any type of price guide in it? ALL the other
coin rags have at least one price guide in EVERY ISSUE. Some have rotating
foreign or expanded/specialty guides in select issues, too. Go check out the
other rags and the Numismatist and see why CW has 100,000 readers and NN has
30,000, but the Num has 30,000 and you get ANA membership with it which means
discounts and access to the library, etc.

Sam
"Compare the mags, side by side, and see the only major difference is the price
guide" (Oh and if you do not put a valid Name and ANA number in your ad, you
ain't advertising in the Numismatist, BTW) And, last I chacked, an ad in the
Numismatist cost about half of what other mags charge. Check it for yourself. I
have been all over this stuff for the last six years. Nothing new to me, and I
have not told all I know, either. I will say, it is easy to come up with better
solutions than the ANA leaders, present and in the recent past... Somewhere,
though, someone wrote some good bylaws... which are not being enforced. I
wonder who benefits from the lack of enforcement... No, I don't wonder; I know
who is taking advantage of the lax enforcement. It is also encouraging those
who would otherwise follow the logo rules to break them, and that really
bothers me. It should bother all right thinking people.
Who _really_ runs the ANA? Follow the money IMHO.

"MorganCoin1" wrote in message
...
f the equivalent of the abuses with the
bottom-feeding coin grading services happened in computers or
healthcare, as just one example, they would be immediately exposed in
the trade and consumer publications that cover these industries.

So, when I was pointing out that the trade publications in numismatics
allow
logo violators to prosper, (and John Stone was too) did you make sure that
trade rags you are with were clean and free of advertisers that were not
willing to put a valid ANA name and number in their ad with the ANA logo?
Try
making a complaint against a member that does not provide both a name and
a
number.

The course dealing with the advertisers by the trade papers are part of
the
current problem, IMHO. I pointed this out to Alan Herbert. He said the
highest
he ever got was as editor of Coins Mag. I said he ought to know who to
call at
Krause to get compliance, but he did nothing that I know of.


You are making an assumption I think, that there is anything that can be
done about it. the trade papers as you call them, depend almost entirely on
dealer revenues for their revenues. I can't imagine what would convince
them to make any effort to enforce anything on their larger advertisers,
even if they wanted to. besides, I am not sure there is any real long term
benefit to such "policing" actions. A better long term approach is
collector education, including explaining to collectors how large dealers
manipulate the market by their promotions (such as registry sets, "treasure"
coins, etc.) and in other ways, and make collectors understand that no
matter what the dealer or grader says, there is no way to determine the
future value of any coin, or whether it will grade the same down the road.
One thing the ANA could do right now is to kill off the "coins as
investments" scam. They should have a policy that any ANA member that
promotes this idea in any way should be booted permanently right out of the
organization.

It is prolly a time for a check of NN, CW and the others... but I refuse
to
read them because they do not promote or insist upon ANA logo compliance.
Of
course, the ANA itself just really messed it up and changed the logo... to
what, we don't know... First, it was to that peace dollar thingy, then
some
crescent with a date on it or something... Who knows? So it is impossible
to
tell who is a member. And then, NGC gets to slap a (recognizable) ANA logo
on
its slabs... AH collectibles sells NGC slabs with the ANA logo on them,
and he
was kicked out for failure to answer a complaint and DH resigned... But
they
can still have a picture of an ANA logo in their ads... After all Eric and
Barry Stuppler and others did, they can still sell ANA logoed coins. What
a
kick in the head.

I'm not sure how you can prevent someone from selling a piece of property
they own, regardless of whose logo is on it. Besides, I would think you
would prefer such people to be selling NGC brand plastic rather than some
brand of plastic you don't approve of.


Umm, tell me Reid, is that how they run health care and computer
industries?
The coin trade papers need a shake up too. It is an industry-wide problem.
Lemme know when you get a grip on how much there is to do to right the ANA
ship. Trade papers... ha.

I think the health care example is a lark. The medical profession knew for
30 years that folic acid taken during pregnancy dramtically reduced the
risks of birth defects, and yet did nothing about it until some drug company
was able to make it a prescription drug so they could make money off of it.
Similar situations occur all the time (the latest is HRT). The trade papers
(and I include the JAMA) just don't care about things that don't make money
for the drug companys.

I am not sure what trade papers you think offer unbiased advice about
computers but I do recall reading a review of compaq computers in which they
extolled how great a new line was and than buried in the story was a few
sentences about how the unit they had was DOA, and they had to reload the OS
after reformating the HDD on the replacement unit to get it to do anything.

Most trade publications stories about products are little more than rehashed
press releases from the companyes that make them. Once you understand that,
you can understand why you almost never see a bad reveiew of even a really
awful product.


Why can't the Numismatist have any type of price guide in it? ALL the
other
coin rags have at least one price guide in EVERY ISSUE. Some have rotating
foreign or expanded/specialty guides in select issues, too. Go check out
the
other rags and the Numismatist and see why CW has 100,000 readers and NN
has
30,000, but the Num has 30,000 and you get ANA membership with it which
means
discounts and access to the library, etc.

Sam
"Compare the mags, side by side, and see the only major difference is the
price
guide" (Oh and if you do not put a valid Name and ANA number in your ad,
you
ain't advertising in the Numismatist, BTW) And, last I chacked, an ad in
the
Numismatist cost about half of what other mags charge. Check it for
yourself. I
have been all over this stuff for the last six years. Nothing new to me,
and I
have not told all I know, either. I will say, it is easy to come up with
better
solutions than the ANA leaders, present and in the recent past...
Somewhere,
though, someone wrote some good bylaws... which are not being enforced. I
wonder who benefits from the lack of enforcement... No, I don't wonder; I
know
who is taking advantage of the lax enforcement. It is also encouraging
those
who would otherwise follow the logo rules to break them, and that really
bothers me. It should bother all right thinking people.
Who _really_ runs the ANA? Follow the money IMHO.

OTOH - what if the dealers just stopped putting the logo and ANA number in
the ad altogether? would that be any better? I don't see how the inclusion
or lack thereof of the logo and member number is going to make any
difference to anyone buying coins. I personally do not care one bit if the
people at the coin show are ANA members, I have never asked, nor do most
display any logos or member numbers, although I have seen a few do so, and I
do not even look for such information in an ebay listing.

No one has ever asked for my ANA member number on the few auctions where I
have sold stuff, and quite frankly, I have never thought putting my ANA
number in an auction would have any beneficial effect so have not done so.

In article , jstone9352
@aol.com says...
The APS (main stamp collecting organization in the US) is working with Ebay
in cracking down on fake, facsimilie and reproduction stamps. Stamps
have to be clearly marked as such on the stamp itself.

Of course you can see what I am leading to. - If the APS can work with Ebay
on cracking down on stamp fraud why can't the ANA do the same
with coins?


I already asked Gary Lewis, and got kind of a non-answer to the effect
that they're working on it and I should see something written on the
subject in the next six months. (I take this to be a bet that I'll
forget by then.)
--
Chrysta Wilson

My Collection:
http://www.chrystawilson.com

In article , jstone9352
says...
The APS (main stamp collecting organization in the US) is working with Ebay
in cracking down on fake, facsimilie and reproduction stamps. Stamps
have to be clearly marked as such on the stamp itself.

Of course you can see what I am leading to. - If the APS can work with
Ebay
on cracking down on stamp fraud why can't the ANA do the same
with coins?


I already asked Gary Lewis, and got kind of a non-answer to the effect
that they're working on it and I should see something written on the
subject in the next six months. (I take this to be a bet that I'll
forget by then.)
--
Chrysta Wilson

I went and looked at ebay's stamp rules and recomendations, and IMO, we could
use a similar set of standards at ebay, and ebay would benefit too (from
increased coin revenue, IMHO):

http://pages.ebay.com/help/index_pop...s=topics.html&

Ebay sellers have to abide by APS rules. Now, if ebay sellers had to abide by
ANA rules, then the ANA elections might mean something if someone wants to
change an ebay rule... Anyway, it surprises who that the ANA cannot just use
almost the same ebay format as APS and have its name (ANA) all over the place
when anyone wants to sell a coin or numismatic item? Can I see a show of hands
of who is surprised about the ANA dragging its feet on this? Yeah... Nothing
new from the ANA, unless it is a logo that won't work or a decision to remove
and replace the chairperson that actually had to go to bat to protect
consumers...