A grading question

"Rick Scott" wrote in message
ups.com...
Grading Systems Have DISTROYED the hobby.


This is so true. When this was a hobby back in the 1970a to about the mid
1980s people bought/sold/traded for fun because they like sports &
sportscards. In around 1984 when Donruss was hot everyone started to invest
in Mattingly & Strawberry rookies. The next 5 years saw all kinds of stuff
occur from Upper Deck arriving to FB, BSK, HK etc. get hot. Then in the late
80's/90 Alan Hagar started Accu-card which was the 1st card grading company.
He took his knowledge from coin grading and crossed it over. He has made a
lot of $! and at the time i liked his ideas & product. He was like the
inventor so i still congratulate him on his success. At first for a while
the major dealers from Rosen down the line did not like this and said they
would never sell graded cards. after a few of the people started doing it
and getting MORE money than they could non-graded many others followed or
"crossed the picket lines". You have to remember at those times in the card
industry profitbale sales for most people were flat and everyone was just
turning their items over & over and not making much money like it was in the
1984-1989 frenzy. The few people who stayed with grading cards saw the
potential and took advantage of it and now there are many ways to get cards
graded and make money and as well lose money. There really isn't a hobby
anymore. Companies have come & gone and it isn't cheap to produce things
like you use to. Everyone sees grading cards as a gimmick to buy this & that
but in actualality it gives no one a reaosn to collect but to only buy for
what something is possibly worth. People take older cards & trim them since
sizes varied and restore cards and i see them all the time in PSA holders.
Old cards did not have super sharp edges or corners cut by exacto knives and
what is really the worst out of this is the inconsistent grading . I thought
the government would have got involved in the fraud that was and is being
committed with altered graded cards long ago but so far those people still
get away with it and they know what they are doing. What was the hobby in
1990 has lost many good dealers & collectors but since grading ='s $ more
people with $ have kept this thing going some more. It will never die at
once but again people can only afford so much so more people give up buying
only to give wau to some teenager trying to make a $ as the new breed chases
things like Bonds etc. The grading thing after so long sees a very good % of
the market & what is out there and then at some point the rare cards & very
important finds or high grades start seeing stupid $ and people get richer.
Eventually the only people who make money are the graders. It may be 10
years down the road but things are really dead overall unless you get
ungraded older stuff that is truely nrmt/mt from private collectors who
don't do SCD or Rosen type dealers with the big bucks or even Ebay as that
goes. Graded cards desrtoyed this hobby and could never change it back.
Where once it was a hooby , now it is just big business. Everything will
eventually turn into the same thing just like coins & stamps but this time
it will be graded comic books, records & paper money.

I submit & buy many graded cards, many of which never leave my possession.
I have BGS cards #'d below 100,000. Still got them too. I just like the
preservation factor. I do send extra cards in to be graded, but just to
resell and cover those high fees. I consider my self a high quality
collector and submit based on the tough aspects of a card. I have a 1996
Crown Royale Silver Troy Aikman, why is that so great, it has perfect edges
.... all the way around the crown. What is the chance that in 25 years when
these cards go to my sons, there will even be wax left to try and pull
something like that?

I also shop for good vintage on a regular basis. A NR-MT 1954 Topps is a
beautiful thing ...

Grading doesn't hurt the hobby, the greed it breeds does ...

Patrick

--
www.dacollector.net
Trading Cards, Collectibles, Custom Display Cases & Software (Coming soon)
"pkstore2" wrote in message
.. .

"Rick Scott" wrote in message
ups.com...
Grading Systems Have DISTROYED the hobby.


This is so true. When this was a hobby back in the 1970a to about the mid
1980s people bought/sold/traded for fun because they like sports &
sportscards. In around 1984 when Donruss was hot everyone started to
invest
in Mattingly & Strawberry rookies. The next 5 years saw all kinds of stuff
occur from Upper Deck arriving to FB, BSK, HK etc. get hot. Then in the
late
80's/90 Alan Hagar started Accu-card which was the 1st card grading
company.
He took his knowledge from coin grading and crossed it over. He has made a
lot of $! and at the time i liked his ideas & product. He was like the
inventor so i still congratulate him on his success. At first for a while
the major dealers from Rosen down the line did not like this and said they
would never sell graded cards. after a few of the people started doing it
and getting MORE money than they could non-graded many others followed or
"crossed the picket lines". You have to remember at those times in the
card
industry profitbale sales for most people were flat and everyone was just
turning their items over & over and not making much money like it was in
the
1984-1989 frenzy. The few people who stayed with grading cards saw the
potential and took advantage of it and now there are many ways to get
cards
graded and make money and as well lose money. There really isn't a hobby
anymore. Companies have come & gone and it isn't cheap to produce things
like you use to. Everyone sees grading cards as a gimmick to buy this &
that
but in actualality it gives no one a reaosn to collect but to only buy for
what something is possibly worth. People take older cards & trim them
since
sizes varied and restore cards and i see them all the time in PSA holders.
Old cards did not have super sharp edges or corners cut by exacto knives
and
what is really the worst out of this is the inconsistent grading . I
thought
the government would have got involved in the fraud that was and is being
committed with altered graded cards long ago but so far those people still
get away with it and they know what they are doing. What was the hobby in
1990 has lost many good dealers & collectors but since grading ='s $ more
people with $ have kept this thing going some more. It will never die at
once but again people can only afford so much so more people give up
buying
only to give wau to some teenager trying to make a $ as the new breed
chases
things like Bonds etc. The grading thing after so long sees a very good %
of
the market & what is out there and then at some point the rare cards &
very
important finds or high grades start seeing stupid $ and people get
richer.
Eventually the only people who make money are the graders. It may be 10
years down the road but things are really dead overall unless you get
ungraded older stuff that is truely nrmt/mt from private collectors who
don't do SCD or Rosen type dealers with the big bucks or even Ebay as that
goes. Graded cards desrtoyed this hobby and could never change it back.
Where once it was a hooby , now it is just big business. Everything will
eventually turn into the same thing just like coins & stamps but this time
it will be graded comic books, records & paper money.

Grading doesn't hurt the hobby, the greed it breeds does ...

This statement above took away the hobby. In 1987 Topps reported something
in the neighborhood of 5-7 million of each baseball card made for wax,
cello, sets, vending, uncut sheet deals, rack packs etc. How many are made
of their basic product today? Probably not even 30% of the number. Why?
Hobby is now depleted to only people who mainly buy are dealers and/or
people whom want to make money as investing. There will always be someone
buying a pack at every gas station & Walmart but for the most part they
can't afford the higher prices anymore. Grading cards has killed a lot of
things all the way down to people taking cards and altering them
professionally. I have many cards that were altered and not caught. There
are very little rules on the inside of the companies for trimming or cutting
from uncut sheets or restoring the old method with Japanese paper etc. to
make cards mint. The methods used are older than their employess! In the
coin industry you do not see trimmed coins since you don't see uncut sheets
of dimes or pennies. They can alter coins but cards are a joke in that
manner. Make what you can off graded cards but the real knowledgeable people
are far beyond that and take their info looking for other stuff to make a $.

I am very picky when I purchase, I have also seen many COLLECTORS who
collect the players they like and nothing else. The explosion from 3 to
1,500+ sets a year has made it so that many collector's can't build sets
anymore. This is more the manufacturers greed than the collectors or any
grading company.

You can't blame a grading company because people only want to get rich.
That is all anyone ever wants. I started collecting in 1973 and still do
today because me and my sons have a lot of fun working or shopping at shows
together.

I can't see your greed angle. Most cards sent in to grading companies don't
get high grades and that makes grading as much a crap shoot as opening a
pack. Only after multiple inspections and serious consideration do I send a
card in and I still get 8's & 8.5's but they are on good quality vintage and
semi-vintage cards. I don't open a case of 2004 Score FB & send in ever
Manning or Roethlisberger I get into BGS no ?'s asked. I simply collect
what I like.

I recently opened a box of 2004 SPx Football and pulled a Julius Jones
Spectrum Gold AUTO JERSEY RC but have turned down all offers to sell it
because I think he has great potential. The card I have is #'d 25/25 and I
would only sell it for the $500 book value because I expect good things from
him. I am a collector first, grading doesn't make me greedy, the fact I
paid $1,100 for 14 boxes of 2004 SPx makes me have to be financially prudent
....

E-Bay has done for the greed of the hobby than any grading company ever
could.

--
www.dacollector.net
Trading Cards, Collectibles, Custom Display Cases & Software (Coming soon)
"pkstore2" wrote in message
. ..


Grading doesn't hurt the hobby, the greed it breeds does ...

This statement above took away the hobby. In 1987 Topps reported something
in the neighborhood of 5-7 million of each baseball card made for wax,
cello, sets, vending, uncut sheet deals, rack packs etc. How many are made
of their basic product today? Probably not even 30% of the number. Why?
Hobby is now depleted to only people who mainly buy are dealers and/or
people whom want to make money as investing. There will always be someone
buying a pack at every gas station & Walmart but for the most part they
can't afford the higher prices anymore. Grading cards has killed a lot of
things all the way down to people taking cards and altering them
professionally. I have many cards that were altered and not caught. There
are very little rules on the inside of the companies for trimming or
cutting
from uncut sheets or restoring the old method with Japanese paper etc. to
make cards mint. The methods used are older than their employess! In the
coin industry you do not see trimmed coins since you don't see uncut
sheets
of dimes or pennies. They can alter coins but cards are a joke in that
manner. Make what you can off graded cards but the real knowledgeable
people
are far beyond that and take their info looking for other stuff to make a
$.

E-Bay has done for the greed of the hobby than any grading company ever
could.

You can't be serious? Ebay is nothing more than modernization of mankind.
Real auctions have been around for over 100 years and all that Ebay is , is
a venue that is in space where people can bid around the world 24/7. If
something goes for more or less than it is worth that is business. People
make & loose money on cards there everyday. It is no different than a
storefront or a show dealer in business. Look at the coin & stamp industry
and ask those dealers how that hobby was before grading and then how it is
now years later. Same answer...there basically is no hobby anymore except
for the people who grew up with it 30-40 years ago.

Coins got beat down because Investors got into the market & inflated the
prices with fixed price guides. The same people tried that with cards,
remember CCP????

The investors pulled out of coins and left the collectors holding the bag.
The card people saw this coming to cards and stopped it in the early 90's.

E-Bay and the disreputable dealers drive the prices lower because the buyer
takes the risk they will get beat. They bid less based on 1 or 2 negative
feedbacks and then collector's come to card shows expecting the E-Bay
prices. Never taking into account that it costs $250-300 to do a mall show.

Cards are not a profiteering business, unless you want to sink tons of money
every month buying the hot new stuff and ripping it open in hopes of finding
the 1/1 or rare auto rc ...

Sounds like the only people making money here are the graders and
manufacturers ...

last time I checked $50 gets you a single jersey or auto card ... and great
news IT'S BRET BOONE !!!!!



--
www.dacollector.net
Trading Cards, Collectibles, Custom Display Cases & Software (Coming soon)
"pkstore2" wrote in message
. ..

E-Bay has done for the greed of the hobby than any grading company ever
could.

You can't be serious? Ebay is nothing more than modernization of mankind.
Real auctions have been around for over 100 years and all that Ebay is ,
is
a venue that is in space where people can bid around the world 24/7. If
something goes for more or less than it is worth that is business. People
make & loose money on cards there everyday. It is no different than a
storefront or a show dealer in business. Look at the coin & stamp industry
and ask those dealers how that hobby was before grading and then how it is
now years later. Same answer...there basically is no hobby anymore except
for the people who grew up with it 30-40 years ago.

"Patrick W. Schubert Sr." wrote in message
...
Coins got beat down because Investors got into the market & inflated the
prices with fixed price guides. The same people tried that with cards,
remember CCP????

CCP was a great newspaper type price guide. It came around the time that was
needed for STAR Jordan rookies to blow that market wide open. Also if i
recall correctly the owners of CCP were basketball buyers : ) It was a great
thing for the hobby to see an additional price guide to use for cards. Coins
& every other industry had it but in cards you only had Tuff Stuff & Beckett
mainly besides SCD. The peopel that did not like it were the ones who did
not make any money. It had no impact on the hobby after it was gone for
basketball & hockey cards were already on their way to acceptance. I had
been going to Canada years earlier buying stuff as well as having a few good
connections of Fleer Basketball 86 & 87 closeout from a guy in Texas and the
guy in Pittsburgh.
Ebay does not have anything to do with prices they are just an entity. When
you have everyone just trying to buy/sell & not collect like this started as
a hobby 40 years ago prices will be just like anything else hot today sell
off tommorrow. People when going to shows have always been wanting things
cheap. That was the demise of the cardshows in the early 90's. The bigger
shows had great deals and the local stores were closing. That is why Walmart
& Target got more into cards. If you do shows and don't do good, you are
buying the wrong stuff or are doing the wrong shows simply. Sell supplies
vs. 10 guys selling wax and see what profits are to be made.
Cards are a huge profitable business and you don't have to sink tons of $
into it. Buying the right way and looking for odd things and like everyone
else "get to know a PSA or BGS" employee and eventually if you get enough
graded like 100 or more at a time you will get that magic high grade card it
seems.
Graders & Manuf. are the ones making some $ but again there is still a ton
of untouched things out there it can be you someday also!
I'd rather have in my case a Paris Hilton auto/game used card!

Will Paris's photo be in natural or green lighting???? HA HA LOL ... What
will the "Event" used piece consist of????

As far as CCP, I remember them disappearing from the market because of
pricing based on what they stockpiled the month before. Their prices were
similar to Beckett's but the High dollar, High speculation cards were driven
up based on their ownership levels. Hardly fair ...

Also, many Star Jordan's in circulation today are counterfeits which are so
good BGS wouldn't touch them until recently.

Many people tell me they look for something on E-Bay prior to coming to a
show. They know what the item sold for in the last 90 days, and once that #
is in their head, try to get them to think any higher ... also, since they
are face to face with you the $3 in S&H for the auction doesn't apply
....They see a $25 card sell on E-Bay for $4 + S&H, they expect to buy it for
$4 ... So yes, E-Bay may be an entity but it is the place buyers look for
pricing. People only use Beckett for selling ...

I do shows and take over 35,000 cards with me when I set up. All neatly
divided by player with display cases for the primo stuff. I sort my stars
like I do because I have tons of them and finding them without organization
is near impossible or requires moving boxes to get to the box it is in.
That is just for me to put away my new stuff.

I wish there was a more inclusive pricing system in the hobby today. The
E-Bay price would be wholesale while Hi & Lo book prices would be based on
actual non internet realized prices. Life is different at shows and in card
shops. Many shops of old are long gone and the newer shops buy from E-Bay &
resell boxes & singles but customers don't seem to want it unless you have
it out (using ESP) and ready when the walk up or in ...

You would not believe how many people walk up to my table and say "Do you
have any Greg Maddux?" ... (My website listed below has a photo of my show
setup under the display case link). Then when you say in the star boxes,
they just walk away. It would take me 30 tables to "show" every card.

Sometimes, people make me wonder ...

I do rare shows these days and keep my cards for some future handover to my
sons ...

Patrick

--
www.dacollector.net
Trading Cards, Collectibles, Custom Display Cases & Software (Coming soon)

"pkstore2" wrote in message
.. .

"Patrick W. Schubert Sr." wrote in message
...
Coins got beat down because Investors got into the market & inflated the
prices with fixed price guides. The same people tried that with cards,
remember CCP????

CCP was a great newspaper type price guide. It came around the time that
was
needed for STAR Jordan rookies to blow that market wide open. Also if i
recall correctly the owners of CCP were basketball buyers : ) It was a
great
thing for the hobby to see an additional price guide to use for cards.
Coins
& every other industry had it but in cards you only had Tuff Stuff &
Beckett
mainly besides SCD. The peopel that did not like it were the ones who did
not make any money. It had no impact on the hobby after it was gone for
basketball & hockey cards were already on their way to acceptance. I had
been going to Canada years earlier buying stuff as well as having a few
good
connections of Fleer Basketball 86 & 87 closeout from a guy in Texas and
the
guy in Pittsburgh.
Ebay does not have anything to do with prices they are just an entity.
When
you have everyone just trying to buy/sell & not collect like this started
as
a hobby 40 years ago prices will be just like anything else hot today sell
off tommorrow. People when going to shows have always been wanting things
cheap. That was the demise of the cardshows in the early 90's. The bigger
shows had great deals and the local stores were closing. That is why
Walmart
& Target got more into cards. If you do shows and don't do good, you are
buying the wrong stuff or are doing the wrong shows simply. Sell supplies
vs. 10 guys selling wax and see what profits are to be made.
Cards are a huge profitable business and you don't have to sink tons of $
into it. Buying the right way and looking for odd things and like everyone
else "get to know a PSA or BGS" employee and eventually if you get enough
graded like 100 or more at a time you will get that magic high grade card
it
seems.
Graders & Manuf. are the ones making some $ but again there is still a ton
of untouched things out there it can be you someday also!
I'd rather have in my case a Paris Hilton auto/game used card!