Europeans are Slow

"Colin Kynoch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:35:08 GMT, "Stujoe"
wrote:

Personally, I would be as suspicious of a (US) dealer who HATES slabs as
I
would be of a (US) dealer who LOVES slabs. I don't see them as good or
evil.
They are just pieces of plastic. An ugly holder, if you will. I have yet
to
see one that can't be cracked.

Having them unable to be cracked would defeat the purpose on all
grades but 70's

If the slab was unable to be cracked how could you get an upgrade on
the grade when the standards drop as most here agree has happened.

That doesn't affect me at all. However, being able to crack them after I get
them does. As long as I can crack them when I want to and display them how I
want to, I have no problems with them.

--
Stujoe
Email: http://tinyurl.com/wu00
Grading Challenge,Daily Coin News, Virtual Coin Museum and mo
http://www.CoinPeople.com

Scottishmoney wrote:

"Ian" wrote in message
...

Aladdin Sane wrote:

R U from Australia?

Ian


Thats right, our ancestors were kicked out of all the good places in the
"OLD" world.

Actually some 'Merican's ancestors got the bootie from the Old World too.
Mainly for taking sides with the Jacobites instead of the Hanoverians in the
'46.

Dave
"Never forget, always forgive"

You refer to the Highland clearances. Getting rid of people to make way
for sheep.

Many neither forgive nor forget......but when Scot's rebels of the time
said `F*** your sheep' to the english landlords, many of them appear to
have taken the suggestion quite literally. :-)

Ian


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On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:34:57 -0600, Chris S chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote:

"Jorg Lueke" wrote:
To see the brilliance of slabbing. No more pewter Thalers or hammered
pennies made by Artie next door. When will they learn?

Has any slabber ever made a significant push to enter the European
market?
If so, what was the outcome? I wouldn't be surprised if none has, or if
they
did, they pulled out.

Here's why I say that: A cursory comparison of coin prices on ebay.de vs.
ebay.com shows that the percentage of US coin prices that are over $200
is
much higher in the US (4-6%) than Germany (2%). Also, the number of US
eBay
listings is huge compared to that in Germany. Thus, slabbers have a much
less attractive market, particularly when you consider that the number of
coin series is so much higher, meaning more expertise is required.

Granted, my technique assumes eBay is representative of the overall
market,
and I spent all of five minutes on my market analysis. But absent
credible
evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't expect a slabber to seriously
consider
the European market, even if other factors that drive the slabbing market
were on par with the US (and I don't think they are).

--Chris

Chris, my assumption is that the US is the biggest coin market and has
been for the past twenty years (I'm pretty sure I've read thgat a few
times). My suspicion is that as the European (or any other market Canada,
Australia, Japan whatever) gets bigger the new collectors will be of the
type who will prefer slabs. What is the second biggest market anyway, UK,
Germany or somewhere else? Don't those non Americans still prefer stamps
over coins?

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:35:08 GMT, Stujoe wrote:

"JSTONE9352" wrote in message
...

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at
all.


Stack's HATES slabs. There are not
many in their auctions and they seem to always give their opinion of the
grade
and put the slab grade at the very end
of the auction listing.

Personally, I would be as suspicious of a (US) dealer who HATES slabs as
I
would be of a (US) dealer who LOVES slabs. I don't see them as good or
evil.
They are just pieces of plastic. An ugly holder, if you will. I have yet
to
see one that can't be cracked.

Very good point!

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:50:00 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:21:35 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:32:15 GMT, Colin Kynoch

wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:47:55 +0000, "note.boy"
wrote:

Buying from a long established UK dealer has no pitfalls. Billy

Likewise in Australia

Colin Kynoch

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.

I have purchased from quite a number of dealers in Australia, and for
the most part the sell slabbed coins at a discount to cler their
inventory of them.

The vast majority of US coins in Australia are sold raw.

And I have spoke to a few dealers who when they purchase slabbed
Aussie coins the liberate them as quickly as they can.

This isn't because they are dishonest and don't agree with the grades
(although we don't use numeric grading here so MS63 means nothing at
all to your average Aussie collector, Brilliant UNC would mean a lot
more)), but that they can't move them as wqickly as 'free' coins.

Same here 30 years ago, I will look you up in 30 more and you can fawn
over your nicely slabbed collection ;-)

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 10:54:00 +0000, note.boy
wrote:

If the slabbing of coins is "essential" why are Stacks still in
business?

It is not essential and perhaps completely unnecessary for advanced
collectors. I believe it is an inevitability in a growing market. Stacks
has enough of a long time customer base and prestige to be an exception.
I'm sure many of the dealers who buy their coins at auction quickly send
them on to be entombed.

The fact that they are suggests that not all collectors are taken in by
slabbing.

Do Stacks sell a lot of coins to foreign visitors who are happier to buy
unslabbed than slabbed?

I've only seen a handful of slabbed coins offered for sale in the UK and
the correct UK grade is always given which is always below the one on
the slab. Billy

I realized that you intended to argue against slabbing, but I was suggesting
that your story argues better for slabbing than against.* You demonstrated
that buying raw coins is risky. Your stoic remedy of buying only when truly
expert can be effective. But it's not the only way to mitigate the risks;
nor is it necessarily the most efficient technique.

For example, there are some exquisite counterfeit 1955 double die Lincolns.
I know Lincolns pretty well, and once applied the diagnostics for a
particularly high-quality series of counterfeits to a relative's a raw '55
DDO. I'm not embarrassed to admit that even after thoughtful comparison with
a 10x loupe, I couldn't tell for sure.

I wouldn't bet on my ability to detect the best-of-the-best fakes. Nor would
I develop that level of expertise when I can hire it for $30. Similarly, but
to a lesser extent, I value the grading opinions and alteration-detection
skills of reputable slabbers. When correctly applied, slabbing can benefit
both buyers and sellers.

--Chris

* Actually, an $80 coin is a poor candidate for slabbing, but at the time I
didn't know the value.


"Scottishmoney" wrote:

"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote in message
...
Was a high-value coin? Did you seek recourse to the dealer, and to what
end?
If you ended up as the "stuckee", you're making a decent case for
slabbing,
inasmuch as a reputable slab provides insurance against such losses. And
yours sounds like an easily preventable loss; not all counterfeits or
alterations are easily detectable.


I discovered that it was counterfeit after coming home to the US. Because
I
bought it in Germany there was not much chance of recourse unless I felt
like flying back to Hamburg. Actually I am not making a case for
slabbing,
I am stating I should have known better about the coin before I bought it.
I bought a date of a coin which does not exist in real mintage figures.
That is common with pre WWI era coins, they were either counterfieted, or
officially restruck in the national mints, ie Austria, France etc. Had I
known that at the time, I would not have bought the coin. BTW 150 Marks
was
what I paid for it, at that time it was about $80 or so, not much over the
bullion value of the gold. There were also lots and lots of St Gauden's
$20
coins for sale in Europe, and they may have been counterfeit also.




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You have a very sensible attitude towards the grade on a slab, if only
you were in the majority. Billy


Alan & Erin Williams wrote:

"note.boy" wrote:

"How many other commodities require you to be an expert in order to
avoid fraud?"

Every collectable. Billy

You and I disagree about counterfeits, but I have to second your
comments in this thread. Doll collectors, furniture buyers, art
collectors, anyone dealing in antiquities, porcelein, Chinese art, etc
etc etc has to become well-informed to avoid fraud. Relying on
third-party authentication and grading 100% is to remove more than half
the fun of collecting, anyway, IMO.

Are those the *original* Mrs. Beasley's glasses? Is that real Ming? Is
that a rare Hot Wheels color? When did the cover art change on Classics
Illustrated's "The Bottle Imp"?

What are the characteristics of cast coin forgeries? How can you tell an
added mintmark? Is that a mint artifact or post-strike damage? ;-)

I collect coins because I like coins as little parcels of art and
history. I don't collect coins to have a set of plastic slabs with
matching initials and grades.

Is my type set's Walking Liberty an MS-65 or an MS-66? Beats me. I
don't care. ;-) She's a beautiful Uncirculated example, fully struck. Suits.

Is that Lincoln EF 40 or VF 35? Ah ha! I don't care what it says on
the slab, for that series, I'm happy to trust my own assessment.

Alan
'knows diddly squat about Tiffany'


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:02 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your
abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand
both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items
are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a
certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading
skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading
skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions
that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins
and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels
that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a
point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them,
but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late
80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢
coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck,
when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and
quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now
I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and
even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't
been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave

Dave,

There is no substitution for knowledge and experience. Informed and wise
collectors will have few problems in this hobby/business. Especially with
MS grading the subjectivity is a very important detail to keep in mind.
The entire registry set craze has probably helped business but also
tarnsihed the reputation of the grading services, especially amongst
serious collectors. But I still feel that casual collectors are vital to
hobby growth, and this growth will only occur when people can feel
reasonably confident about what they are buying. How many other
commodities require you to be an expert in order to avoid fraud?

"Ian" wrote in message
news:ioCTb.4974$JQ2.45146233@news-

You refer to the Highland clearances. Getting rid of people to make way
for sheep.

Many neither forgive nor forget......but when Scot's rebels of the time
said `F*** your sheep' to the english landlords, many of them appear to
have taken the suggestion quite literally. :-)

Ian

You know they improvised, since they couldn't find anyone to invoke Prima
Nachta anymore.

Dave


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On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 06:09:57 -0500, "Scottishmoney"
wrote:


"Ian" wrote in message
news:ioCTb.4974$JQ2.45146233@news-

You refer to the Highland clearances. Getting rid of people to make way
for sheep.

Many neither forgive nor forget......but when Scot's rebels of the time
said `F*** your sheep' to the english landlords, many of them appear to
have taken the suggestion quite literally. :-)

Ian

You know they improvised, since they couldn't find anyone to invoke Prima
Nachta anymore.

I don't believe they ever had primae noctis (droit de seigneur?)
imposed in Scotland unless of course you believe in Mel Gibson's
history of Scotland... which I know you don't

Of course those French... but even there it seems to have been
dismissed as something of a myth.

Thanks
Darren