Europeans are Slow

I have one slabbed coin, a UK error penny graded MS something or other
bought off ebay, it has disfiguring green spot on it and I dread to
think what it is, a sneezer? Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:51:53 +0000, note.boy
wrote:

The USA will have a President with an IQ above 9 before European
collectors embrace slabbed coins, we are far to smart to be suckered.
Billy

Time will tell

Have you not seen medieval paintings with ancient coins featured in the
foreground as an indication of the subject's wealth?

If there were no coin collectors centuries ago there would be few
ancient coins around now, they would have been melted, but there are ten
of million of them available now.

The ancient Romans admired and collected ancient Greek coins, the coins
would have been 500 + years old then.

Coins must be the first collectable.

Prepare to be surprised. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:45:27 +0000, note.boy
wrote:

Slabbing serves one purpose only, to make money for the slabbers.

That is too cynical a view for me,

Europeans have managed to collect unslabbed coins for 1,500? years.

Come now, 1500 years ago our ancestors were likely illterate savages,
still waiting for conversion and lucky to live past 30. I doubt they were
actively collecting coins. Even as little as 100 years ago the coin
collecting hobby was a very small community. It was probably not unitl
the 50's and 60's that more average people here started collecting. Once
silver was removed the market see,ed to stagnate eventually leading to
slabs and coin "investments". While that bubble burst the value of slabs
to ordinary collectors is withstanding the test of time. I will be
surprised is some sort of slabbing/authentication dosen't take hold in
Europe in the next 10-20 years.

Americans need them slabbed, sad. Billy

"note.boy" wrote:

"How many other commodities require you to be an expert in order to
avoid fraud?"

Every collectable. Billy

You and I disagree about counterfeits, but I have to second your
comments in this thread. Doll collectors, furniture buyers, art
collectors, anyone dealing in antiquities, porcelein, Chinese art, etc
etc etc has to become well-informed to avoid fraud. Relying on
third-party authentication and grading 100% is to remove more than half
the fun of collecting, anyway, IMO.

Are those the *original* Mrs. Beasley's glasses? Is that real Ming? Is
that a rare Hot Wheels color? When did the cover art change on Classics
Illustrated's "The Bottle Imp"?

What are the characteristics of cast coin forgeries? How can you tell an
added mintmark? Is that a mint artifact or post-strike damage? ;-)

I collect coins because I like coins as little parcels of art and
history. I don't collect coins to have a set of plastic slabs with
matching initials and grades.

Is my type set's Walking Liberty an MS-65 or an MS-66? Beats me. I
don't care. ;-) She's a beautiful Uncirculated example, fully struck. Suits.

Is that Lincoln EF 40 or VF 35? Ah ha! I don't care what it says on
the slab, for that series, I'm happy to trust my own assessment.

Alan
'knows diddly squat about Tiffany'


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:02 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your
abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand
both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items
are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a
certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading
skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading
skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions
that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins
and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels
that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a
point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them,
but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late
80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢
coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck,
when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and
quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now
I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and
even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't
been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave

Dave,

There is no substitution for knowledge and experience. Informed and wise
collectors will have few problems in this hobby/business. Especially with
MS grading the subjectivity is a very important detail to keep in mind.
The entire registry set craze has probably helped business but also
tarnsihed the reputation of the grading services, especially amongst
serious collectors. But I still feel that casual collectors are vital to
hobby growth, and this growth will only occur when people can feel
reasonably confident about what they are buying. How many other
commodities require you to be an expert in order to avoid fraud?

"Scottishmoney" wrote:
If you can't
authenticate it, you shouldn't collect it. That is how I feel. Little
experience here, back in 1993 when I was in Hamburg, Germany I purchased a
Hamburg 20 Marks coin dated 1911. Look in your catalog of World coins,
and
you will notice there is no such thing. Who do I blame for it, myself or
the dealer whom sold the counterfeit to me. I blame myself for not
knowing
better.

Was a high-value coin? Did you seek recourse to the dealer, and to what end?
If you ended up as the "stuckee", you're making a decent case for slabbing,
inasmuch as a reputable slab provides insurance against such losses. And
yours sounds like an easily preventable loss; not all counterfeits or
alterations are easily detectable.

Reputable slabbing at a small fraction of the overall transaction cost can
be an excellent aid to commerce. Many prospective purchasers no doubt have
avoided genuine, properly graded coins at market prices solely because they
didn't have the knowledge or means to verify an otherwise fair deal, and a
trusted third-party opinion can make the difference.

--Chris




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"Chris S" chris(at)imt.xohost.com wrote in message
...
Was a high-value coin? Did you seek recourse to the dealer, and to what
end?
If you ended up as the "stuckee", you're making a decent case for
slabbing,
inasmuch as a reputable slab provides insurance against such losses. And
yours sounds like an easily preventable loss; not all counterfeits or
alterations are easily detectable.


I discovered that it was counterfeit after coming home to the US. Because I
bought it in Germany there was not much chance of recourse unless I felt
like flying back to Hamburg. Actually I am not making a case for slabbing,
I am stating I should have known better about the coin before I bought it.
I bought a date of a coin which does not exist in real mintage figures.
That is common with pre WWI era coins, they were either counterfieted, or
officially restruck in the national mints, ie Austria, France etc. Had I
known that at the time, I would not have bought the coin. BTW 150 Marks was
what I paid for it, at that time it was about $80 or so, not much over the
bullion value of the gold. There were also lots and lots of St Gauden's $20
coins for sale in Europe, and they may have been counterfeit also.

Dave


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note.boy wrote:

"How many other commodities require you to be an expert in order to
avoid fraud?"

Every collectable. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:02 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news
Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your
abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand
both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items
are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?


Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a
certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading
skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading
skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions
that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins
and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels
that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a
point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them,
but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late
80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢
coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck,
when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and
quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now
I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and
even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't
been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave

Dave,

There is no substitution for knowledge and experience. Informed and wise
collectors will have few problems in this hobby/business. Especially with
MS grading the subjectivity is a very important detail to keep in mind.
The entire registry set craze has probably helped business but also
tarnsihed the reputation of the grading services, especially amongst
serious collectors. But I still feel that casual collectors are vital to
hobby growth, and this growth will only occur when people can feel
reasonably confident about what they are buying. How many other
commodities require you to be an expert in order to avoid fraud?

....also every financial `product' out there ;^)

Ian

RR wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian"

It's at this point I take some delight in casually reminding you that
there have been coin collectors in europe long before the US was even a
twinkle in your Uncle Sam's eye, let alone it having any coins to play

with.

I've been jabbed with that line of reasoning before.

And I take great delight in reminding the Europeans that those of us in the
US
didn't materialize from spaceships.


Now lets be honest about this. Many would argue as to the accuracy of
the datum you have presented (above)....but not I. (At least not
tonight) ;^)

Good chance that wonderful coin in their collection was sold by my
greatgrandfather who decided that parting with it was well worth the ticket
price out.

not meaning to start another US vs everyone else verbage war


Now that's something you rarely see on this NG...... :-)


btw. I'd rather have my coins in a 2x2 in a mylar pocket page in a 3ring
binder - than in slabs.


we have accord on that score.

Ian

Randy

Aladdin Sane wrote:

R U from Australia?

Ian

Thats right, our ancestors were kicked out of all the good places in the
"OLD" world.

--
*
/?\
/___\
-O=O-
^
AS & His Magic Hat

A conclusion is simply the place
where you decided to stop thinking.
"RR" wrote in message
...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian"

It's at this point I take some delight in casually reminding you that
there have been coin collectors in europe long before the US was even a
twinkle in your Uncle Sam's eye, let alone it having any coins to play

with.

I've been jabbed with that line of reasoning before.

And I take great delight in reminding the Europeans that those of us in

the

US
didn't materialize from spaceships.

Good chance that wonderful coin in their collection was sold by my
greatgrandfather who decided that parting with it was well worth the

ticket

price out.

not meaning to start another US vs everyone else verbage war

btw. I'd rather have my coins in a 2x2 in a mylar pocket page in a 3ring
binder - than in slabs.

Randy

Jorg Lueke wrote:

Similarly I would be interested
to know the number of fake denarii or city view thalers.

can't speak for the denarii, but while the number of reproductions of
thalers is high, the number of fakes is markedly low. Not easy to fake,
and not `faked' all that convincingly. Provenance tends to be much
clearer for the real McCoy too.

Much of this
can be alleviated by dealing with the right people, but casual
collectors may not easily know who these people might be.

In the case of real city view thalers, there is no such thing as a
`casual' collector. You either get hooked, or you don't, or somewhere
down the line you manage to escape. No `casual' is possible. :-)

Ebay, for
better and worse, has created a larger market place for coins as well
and as the markets grow I think consumers, even in old Europe, will
eventually prefer the protection of a slab over the word of any one
person. Whether or not the supergrade crap comes with it is another
matter.

Really, you should stop referring to `old europe' in the context of a
phenomenon which is only found in the US. Only by examining the reasons
for the rise of `slabs' in the US will you understand its prevalence and
continued prevalence there.....and why the same isn't true in `old
europe'...and why the growth of the internet is more likely to ensure
that slabs won't catch on.

Before the real growth of the internet was the dangers of `sight
unseen'........as in living a couple of thou miles away from a guy
selling a genyewine 1895s good as new Murgin dullah for a mere handful
of thou bucks.

I personally do not care for the authentication provided by your grading
co's. The slabs however do make good preserving agents (and door stops)
so they aren't all bad in my books :-).

Ian

"Ian" wrote in message
...
Aladdin Sane wrote:

R U from Australia?

Ian

Thats right, our ancestors were kicked out of all the good places in the
"OLD" world.

Actually some 'Merican's ancestors got the bootie from the Old World too.
Mainly for taking sides with the Jacobites instead of the Hanoverians in the
'46.

Dave
"Never forget, always forgive"


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