Europeans are Slow

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:29:09 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:10 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:11:23 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:

Something has to be said for being able to grade a coin yourself
instead
of
relying on some dope in some two bit plastic tombing company. Slabs
are
$#!+. Period. I have three coins in slabs, and only don't take them
out
because I do not want to damage the coins in the process of removing
them.

Dave

What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to
do
this themselves as well?

Any collecter worthhis salt?

Yep.

I collect Australian coins, and I also collect counterfeit Australian
coins.

Some of the fake ones are really good, and I love asking friends and
family to tell the difference.

I keep my coins in 2x2 and do not write on them, yet most people can
tell the fakes, even the good ones.

Colin Kynoch

Good for you, bad for a broader market.

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.


Stack's HATES slabs. There are not
many in their auctions and they seem to always give their opinion of the grade
and put the slab grade at the very end
of the auction listing.

"JSTONE9352" wrote in message
...

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.


Stack's HATES slabs. There are not
many in their auctions and they seem to always give their opinion of the
grade
and put the slab grade at the very end
of the auction listing.

Personally, I would be as suspicious of a (US) dealer who HATES slabs as I
would be of a (US) dealer who LOVES slabs. I don't see them as good or evil.
They are just pieces of plastic. An ugly holder, if you will. I have yet to
see one that can't be cracked.

--
Stujoe
Email: http://tinyurl.com/wu00
Grading Challenge,Daily Coin News, Virtual Coin Museum and mo
http://www.CoinPeople.com

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:02 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news
Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your
abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand
both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items
are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a
certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading
skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading
skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions
that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins
and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels
that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a
point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them,
but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late
80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢
coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck,
when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and
quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now
I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and
even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't
been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave

Dave,

There is no substitution for knowledge and experience. Informed and wise
collectors will have few problems in this hobby/business. Especially with
MS grading the subjectivity is a very important detail to keep in mind.
The entire registry set craze has probably helped business but also
tarnsihed the reputation of the grading services, especially amongst
serious collectors. But I still feel that casual collectors are vital to
hobby growth, and this growth will only occur when people can feel
reasonably confident about what they are buying. How many other
commodities require you to be an expert in order to avoid fraud?

"Jorg Lueke" wrote:
To see the brilliance of slabbing. No more pewter Thalers or hammered
pennies made by Artie next door. When will they learn?

Has any slabber ever made a significant push to enter the European market?
If so, what was the outcome? I wouldn't be surprised if none has, or if they
did, they pulled out.

Here's why I say that: A cursory comparison of coin prices on ebay.de vs.
ebay.com shows that the percentage of US coin prices that are over $200 is
much higher in the US (4-6%) than Germany (2%). Also, the number of US eBay
listings is huge compared to that in Germany. Thus, slabbers have a much
less attractive market, particularly when you consider that the number of
coin series is so much higher, meaning more expertise is required.

Granted, my technique assumes eBay is representative of the overall market,
and I spent all of five minutes on my market analysis. But absent credible
evidence to the contrary, I wouldn't expect a slabber to seriously consider
the European market, even if other factors that drive the slabbing market
were on par with the US (and I don't think they are).

--Chris




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On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:21:35 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:32:15 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:47:55 +0000, "note.boy"
wrote:

Buying from a long established UK dealer has no pitfalls. Billy

Likewise in Australia

Colin Kynoch

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.

I have purchased from quite a number of dealers in Australia, and for
the most part the sell slabbed coins at a discount to cler their
inventory of them.

The vast majority of US coins in Australia are sold raw.

And I have spoke to a few dealers who when they purchase slabbed
Aussie coins the liberate them as quickly as they can.

This isn't because they are dishonest and don't agree with the grades
(although we don't use numeric grading here so MS63 means nothing at
all to your average Aussie collector, Brilliant UNC would mean a lot
more)), but that they can't move them as wqickly as 'free' coins.

Even our really big ticket coins are not slabbed, I have not seen a
1930 penny slabbed, or a Holey Dollar, or an Adelaide Pound, and when
the 1920S Soverign sold for over $250,000 it was raw.

Colin Kynoch

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 01:35:08 GMT, "Stujoe"
wrote:

"JSTONE9352" wrote in message
...

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.


Stack's HATES slabs. There are not
many in their auctions and they seem to always give their opinion of the
grade
and put the slab grade at the very end
of the auction listing.

Personally, I would be as suspicious of a (US) dealer who HATES slabs as I
would be of a (US) dealer who LOVES slabs. I don't see them as good or evil.
They are just pieces of plastic. An ugly holder, if you will. I have yet to
see one that can't be cracked.

Having them unable to be cracked would defeat the purpose on all
grades but 70's

If the slab was unable to be cracked how could you get an upgrade on
the grade when the standards drop as most here agree has happened.


Colin Kynoch

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 19:22:57 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:29:09 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 10:20:10 -0600, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 10:11:23 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:

Something has to be said for being able to grade a coin yourself
instead
of
relying on some dope in some two bit plastic tombing company. Slabs
are
$#!+. Period. I have three coins in slabs, and only don't take them
out
because I do not want to damage the coins in the process of removing
them.

Dave

What about authentication, do you expect every collector to be able to
do
this themselves as well?

Any collecter worthhis salt?

Yep.

I collect Australian coins, and I also collect counterfeit Australian
coins.

Some of the fake ones are really good, and I love asking friends and
family to tell the difference.

I keep my coins in 2x2 and do not write on them, yet most people can
tell the fakes, even the good ones.

Colin Kynoch

Good for you, bad for a broader market.

Not when talking Aussie coins.

Slabbing is generally accepted by the braoder market and long may it
stay that way.

At a recent Aussie coin show I think I saw three slabbed Australian
coins.

Two by PCGS with gradings that don't correspond to Australian gradings


Colin Kynoch

"How many other commodities require you to be an expert in order to
avoid fraud?"

Every collectable. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 15:20:02 -0500, Scottishmoney
wrote:


"Jorg Lueke" wrote in message
news
Kudos to you Dave for being knowledgable and confident in your
abilities.
That is certainly the smartest approach: Buy what you can understand
both
in terms of grade and authenticity. However, this approach limits the
playing field to knowledgable collectors only, at least when the prices
start to rise. Why shouldn't a casual fellow be able to buy a few nice
old coins that he enjoys and also receive a guarantee that these items
are
real. I don't have to verify that my car parts are genuine why is the
burden on the consumer with old coins?

Frankly I see a lot of collectors whom will only collect coins by a
certain
grading firm. However in my about 15 year experience in looking at third
party graded coins I have seen that old PCGS was graded on much tougher
standards than new PCGS. On the far ends of the spectrum look at grading
services like NGC and ACG. Frankly grading services add an unnecessary
dimension to collecting, you already should have some basic grading
skills
prior to buying coins, but then when you add in the variable grading
skills
of the various grading services you have nothing but complicated matters.

I have seen numerous coins graded MS-66 or 67 on fleaBay that I quite
honestly think are ugly. I think over the years, especially notable with
PCGS there has been a gradual erosion of grading standards, how is a new
collector to know this? I have even noticed in some fleaBay auctions
that
there appears to be some delineation betwixt old PCGS green label coins
and
the newer hologram labeled coins. I have a couple of old green labels
that
it would be interesting to submit, I bet they would each come back a
point
or two higher. They are Civil War era 1¢ and 3¢ pieces. I like them,
but I
would rather have them in a Kointainer, the slabs mean nothing to me. I
have no plans of selling them, in fact I bought them back in the late
80's
or so so the grade on the label means nothing. It is how the goldish
redness of the 1¢ coin appeals to me, and the clear details of the 3¢
coin
that mean something. I was fortunate enough, maybe it was dumb luck,
when I
was 12 years old that I blew a bit of my allowance on prooflike, and
quite
raw, 1878-S Silver Dollars. I loved the cartwheels when I was a YN, now
I
love them because I was at least lucky enough to have bought them and
even
BU rolls of 1880's era coins when they were dirt cheap. They haven't
been
and will not be slabbed until my corpse cools off anyway.

Dave

Dave,

There is no substitution for knowledge and experience. Informed and wise
collectors will have few problems in this hobby/business. Especially with
MS grading the subjectivity is a very important detail to keep in mind.
The entire registry set craze has probably helped business but also
tarnsihed the reputation of the grading services, especially amongst
serious collectors. But I still feel that casual collectors are vital to
hobby growth, and this growth will only occur when people can feel
reasonably confident about what they are buying. How many other
commodities require you to be an expert in order to avoid fraud?

If the slabbing of coins is "essential" why are Stacks still in
business?

The fact that they are suggests that not all collectors are taken in by
slabbing.

Do Stacks sell a lot of coins to foreign visitors who are happier to buy
unslabbed than slabbed?

I've only seen a handful of slabbed coins offered for sale in the UK and
the correct UK grade is always given which is always below the one on
the slab. Billy


Jorg Lueke wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 21:32:15 GMT, Colin Kynoch
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:47:55 +0000, "note.boy"
wrote:

Buying from a long established UK dealer has no pitfalls. Billy

Likewise in Australia

Colin Kynoch

Generally not, Stacks still does fine without selling many slabs at all.