Help with "INDIA"

I looks like a FDC... I have a few of these..... but instead of being on an
envelope it is on an info sheet.... not every country does things the
same.... kk


"Rodney" wrote in message
...
| In 50 years of collecting, I have never heard of Indian CTO stamps.
| There are tons of postally used - why the need for CTO? Have you
| ever seen any?


Hi Blair,
How about these?
http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox...to&PhotoID=160

If not CTO, how would one describe them?

Hope you're catching up on the backlogs.







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| In 50 years of collecting, I have never heard of Indian CTO stamps.
| There are tons of postally used - why the need for CTO? Have you
| ever seen any?


Hi Blair,
How about these?
http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=160

If not CTO, how would one describe them?

I looks like a FDC... I have a few of these..... but instead of being on an
envelope it is on an info sheet.... not every country does things the
same.... kk

Doesn't the U.S. issue, or didn't it once issue, sheets such as this for new
issues? In any event, the whole item more akin to a first day cover than the
stamp is to a CTO.

Most CTOs are "cancelled" by printing press, whole sheets at once and
distributed, I understand, not by post offices as such but by government
agencies whose customers are wholesale stamp dealers. CTOs are normally
found with gum.

There have been cases (in 1920s "Inflation-era" Germany, for example) when
stamps were cancelled with regular handstamp cancellers and sold wholesale.

If a postal clerk cancels a stamp at the request of a customer, the
resulting stamp is said to have been "favour cancelled". It may look like a
CTO, but isn't.

Bob Ingraham

Thank you gentlemen.
from your advice, I have decided they are "FDFC",
that is First Day Favour cancels.

I had thought they had come as shown from the postal authorities.
On closer inspection some of the booklets were devoid of the
illustrated stamp ( I have 20 or so of the booklets) , which indicates
the orig owner, married some booklets with the stamps and had them
favour cancelled.

As you suggested Bob, some CTO's are cancelled by hand,
I have an image somewhere of a dozen or so dusky maidens
hand cancelling either Nauru or Pitcairn CTO's.



"Bob Ingraham" wrote in message ...
| | In 50 years of collecting, I have never heard of Indian CTO stamps.
| | There are tons of postally used - why the need for CTO? Have you
| | ever seen any?
|
|
| Hi Blair,
| How about these?
| http://groups.msn.com/Stamps/shoebox.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=160
|
| If not CTO, how would one describe them?
|
| I looks like a FDC... I have a few of these..... but instead of being on an
| envelope it is on an info sheet.... not every country does things the
| same.... kk
|
| Doesn't the U.S. issue, or didn't it once issue, sheets such as this for new
| issues? In any event, the whole item more akin to a first day cover than the
| stamp is to a CTO.
|
| Most CTOs are "cancelled" by printing press, whole sheets at once and
| distributed, I understand, not by post offices as such but by government
| agencies whose customers are wholesale stamp dealers. CTOs are normally
| found with gum.
|
| There have been cases (in 1920s "Inflation-era" Germany, for example) when
| stamps were cancelled with regular handstamp cancellers and sold wholesale.
|
| If a postal clerk cancels a stamp at the request of a customer, the
| resulting stamp is said to have been "favour cancelled". It may look like a
| CTO, but isn't.
|
| Bob Ingraham
|
|

Bob Ingraham wrote in message
...

- snip -

If a postal clerk cancels a stamp at the request of a customer, the
resulting stamp is said to have been "favour cancelled". It may look like
a
CTO, but isn't.

Good point, Bob. A couple of months ago I received this impressive
expres-cover from Ireland, franked with a whole sheet of AnPost's
latest art issue. The cover is cancelled on 11th October 2003, in
Baile Atha Cliath, Ireland.

http://w1.1429.telia.com/~u142900356...-ArtSheet1.jpg

The cover is so big that it can't go into my scanner. If I had the
nerve to soak off this sheet, it would be considered a CTO.
Who would know the difference, since many CTOs are often
soaked in order to make believe that they were postally used?

The stamps show paintings on stamps by James Barry, Gabriel
Metsu and Jean-Antoine Watteau, that have just been exhibited
at the National Gallery of Ireland.

Apart from the documents carried in this cover, it also contained
a MNH-sheet + a prestige-booklet of the same paintings, with
full info about the paintings, the artists, and the exhibition as
such.

Mette

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 23:23:10 +0800, "Rodney"
wrote:

Thank you gentlemen.
from your advice, I have decided they are "FDFC",
that is First Day Favour cancels.

I had thought they had come as shown from the postal authorities.
On closer inspection some of the booklets were devoid of the
illustrated stamp ( I have 20 or so of the booklets) , which indicates
the orig owner, married some booklets with the stamps and had them
favour cancelled.

As you suggested Bob, some CTO's are cancelled by hand,
I have an image somewhere of a dozen or so dusky maidens
hand cancelling either Nauru or Pitcairn CTO's.

There may be a dozen or so dusky maidens on Nauru, but definitely no
on Pitcairn! :^)

BTW, the U.S. did issue souvenirs like this. I have seen some and
have traded / sold some of these in the past.

I too have never truly seen a CTO India stamp.

Tracy Barber

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:45:13 +0100, "Mette" wrote:

snip

The cover is so big that it can't go into my scanner. If I had the
nerve to soak off this sheet, it would be considered a CTO.

snip

Not necessarily true. Think about this for a moment. How many CTOs
have many, multiple cities in the cancellations? Most have only 1,
some may have regional cancels, depending where they're printed /
CTOd.

So, if the CTOs were done in "A", and your postmark is "B", then it
will not be looked at as CTO.

I wonder if anyone has ever done any work on identifying CTO cities
for each CTO stamp. One heck of a project!

Tracy Barber

Tracy Barber wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:45:13 +0100, "Mette" wrote:

snip

The cover is so big that it can't go into my scanner. If I had the
nerve to soak off this sheet, it would be considered a CTO.

snip

Not necessarily true. Think about this for a moment. How many CTOs
have many, multiple cities in the cancellations? Most have only 1,
some may have regional cancels, depending where they're printed /
CTOd.

So, if the CTOs were done in "A", and your postmark is "B", then it
will not be looked at as CTO.

Good point! this means that any "serious" (!) CTO would be done
in the city where the issuing post office is located, not in "any" place
of the country as such.


I wonder if anyone has ever done any work on identifying CTO cities
for each CTO stamp. One heck of a project!

That would be very useful for collectors, but I wouldn't want to
do it! And once any such identifying was published, you could
be sure that the issuing post offices would do anything to CTO
their issues in other cities than identified. This would go crazy
like illicit issues ...

Mette

Tony, I don't understand you. Do you mean to say that the
sheet on the cover I show is a CTO?

Mette


A.E. Gelat wrote in message
...
Close examination of the postmarks shows them perfectly centered over four
stamps, four times in the sheetlet. This can only happen if they were
applied at the time of priming.

Tony

"Mette" wrote in message
...
Bob Ingraham wrote in message
...

- snip -

If a postal clerk cancels a stamp at the request of a customer, the
resulting stamp is said to have been "favour cancelled". It may look
like
a
CTO, but isn't.

Good point, Bob. A couple of months ago I received this impressive
expres-cover from Ireland, franked with a whole sheet of AnPost's
latest art issue. The cover is cancelled on 11th October 2003, in
Baile Atha Cliath, Ireland.

http://w1.1429.telia.com/~u142900356...-ArtSheet1.jpg

The cover is so big that it can't go into my scanner. If I had the
nerve to soak off this sheet, it would be considered a CTO.
Who would know the difference, since many CTOs are often
soaked in order to make believe that they were postally used?

The stamps show paintings on stamps by James Barry, Gabriel
Metsu and Jean-Antoine Watteau, that have just been exhibited
at the National Gallery of Ireland.

Apart from the documents carried in this cover, it also contained
a MNH-sheet + a prestige-booklet of the same paintings, with
full info about the paintings, the artists, and the exhibition as
such.

Mette

On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:37:33 +0100, "Mette" wrote:

Tony, I don't understand you. Do you mean to say that the
sheet on the cover I show is a CTO?

He thinks so. It's not quite exactly the same position on the left 2
cancels, if one looks close enough. The canceller would have to be
very, very good to place them where they are though... I suppose that
it could be done!

Tracy Barber

Tracy Barber wrote in message
...
On Tue, 9 Dec 2003 19:37:33 +0100, "Mette" wrote:

Tony, I don't understand you. Do you mean to say that the
sheet on the cover I show is a CTO?

He thinks so. It's not quite exactly the same position on the left 2
cancels, if one looks close enough. The canceller would have to be
very, very good to place them where they are though... I suppose that
it could be done!

I suppose it could be done, but the fact is that the sheet
has been used to frank a cover carrying expres-mail from
Ireland to Denmark ...

Besides, a CTO for me would mean that it was CTOd on
the date of issue, not one month after the actual issue.
I don't know the actual date of issue for this sheet -- could
find it out, though -- but I do know that it was sometime in
September 2003, whereas the sheet is postmarked in
October in a small village in the Irish countryside. None
of the four postmarks are placed in exactly the same
position.

Postmark 1 top left has the 'H' in ATHA placed directly
right of the perforation of the top left stamp.

Postmark 2 top left has the same 'H' placed directly
left of the perforation of the top right stamp.

Postmark 3 bottom left has the number '7' placed in
the middle of the perforation between stamp 1 and 2
in the third row.

Postmark 4 bottom right has the number '7' placed
slightly left of the perforation between stamp 3 and 4
in the third row.

Similar sheets were issued in 2002 and 2001. I have
also the 2002-sheet used on cover in 2003, where
the difference between the four hand-cancels is even
more visible.

I don't think they were originally CTOd and then used
afterwards for carrying an expres-cover to Denmark.
I think they are neatly hand-cancelled.

Mette