Why 8 track sucks

Certainly, I'm more into this 8 track mode to explore its technical
aspects more than anything else, which seems to be the antithesis of
why everyone else is into it, so one has to take my comments based on
that. Today, I had to rise early and go inspect some property a good
two hours away from me, so I grabbed one of my trusty 24 cart totes
and took the car with the 8 track in it. Reason? See if I could have
musical entertainment for four hours with equal to or better than
results than I'd get from cassette. I'd already conceded that CDs
would be more satisfying in ALL parameters, an opinion which is now
solidified. Needless to say, the quest for a trouble free music
program failed, bringing back memories of why I decided it sucked back
in the '70s.

After getting the news on AM (REAL news, not right wing lunacies being
spewed by the pill chewing Flush Limpdick on a competing station), I
popped in an well used but cleaned up cart of CCR's "Green River" on
an Ampex. As with all the carts I put in my listening collection,
this one had been opened up, cleaned, lubricated with PTFE, pinch
roller cleaned and surfaced as necessary, a fresh double taped angle
splice if necessary and a new Win-Gib installed, so it was in what I
consider "good" condition, regardless of the appearance of the label,
since labels on 8 track are an afterthought anyway. It sounded great
on that old Panasonic...good bass, nice highs, no wowing and
fluttering to be heard. I must say that this Panasonic isn't quite
stock, as I removed the output transistors and fed the output of the
voltage stage into aux jacks on the "good" player in the dash, so I
have considerably more power (80 watts total, and flat as a board)
than any 8 track deck ever hoped to have, and can hear what's going
on.

CCR finished up all four tracks without a hitch, seemingly justifying
all my labors with this format to date. Out it went, in went Johnny
Rivers on a Liberty cart, the configuration of which I've never seen
anything like since. This "greatest hits" album was released right
after the Transamerica buyout of the Liberty label, and the cart
proudly boasts Liberty's "EFR" technology. It starts out sounding
great...all that ping-pong stereo from those '60s cuts, along with the
mimicked "wall of sound" mix brought back memories...until the cart
itself started acting up! NOTHING takes my attention away from the
music at hand more than a failure of the medium its recorded on.
First, the flutter was barely evident on the top end, and then went
away, and then returned with greater intrusion. Then, it
started...that same ritual I used to perform back in the '60s, that of
trying to get the damned cartridge to play properly. You know the
drill: pull it out, "reseat" it, wiggle it fore and aft, side to
side, find that "sweet spot" where it sounds good again. As it was,
all it took was to remove and reinsert the cart twice to make the
speed perturbations go away and the old-time southern pop sound of
Rivers return unfettered. I remember this cart had been spliced by
someone else prior to me doing it the right way when I opened up the
cart, and there were the trademark clicks and pops near the splice of
someone cutting it with magnetized scissors...annoying, but fixable
with a head demagger. On the list of things to do that one goes!

Rivers got done, and I reached for one I'd never really listened to at
all for 34 years, CTA's first. This was with all the wild feedback
stuff Steve Kath (who later blew his brains out) did, before CTA
became "Chicago" after getting sued by "Hizzoner" Richard Daley, and
before selling out to Clive Davis' Columbia hit machine. This was on
one of those Columbia carts I've had numerous flutter problems with,
but this one played flawlessly...well, speed wise, anyway. Tracks 1
and 8, it turned out, were suffering from either tape curl, or had
been somewhat near a magnet, as the highs were annoyingly fuzzy, if
not absent. All the interior tracks seemed fine. Oh well, I was at
the site, so I'd deal with this later. It was rather a Kodak moment
when the seller's agent looked in my car and saw all these "plastic
sandwiches" in a big, brown vinyl case. He asks, "Those really WORK?"
Well...yeah....sorta.

On the way back, I did the second CTA cart, again flawless, and
sounding very much like the LP I remember from days of yore. Out with
them, in with Tull's "Storm Clouds." It's crunch time for the 8 track
format, as I'm done with business and listening as critically as ever.
As if knowing I was so doing, problems started almost immediately.
The dreaded flutter started first, causing me to start the
"positioning" ritual again...to, fro, back, forth, up, down...AHA! Up
does it! I recall the old high school/college trick, shoving a
matchbook under the cart body to keep it playing. Alas...it's the
21st century, NO one carries matches anymore. The agent's property
description card, doubled over a few times, works well in a pinch.
OK, now I can listen...for two minutes, when the tape started
wandering deliriously off track...fading out, then in, then out, then
a hint of adjoinging tracks...maddening! Out the cart comes for a
peek into the front while trying to drive at 65 per...NOT recommended.
I pondered the expressions of those passing me seeing me staring into
the end of an 8 track cartridge in 2004...priceless!

I decided to top off fuel, have a cup of coffee, and investigate the
cart while doing so. NOT the problem, this cart! As it turns out,
one of the previously played carts had shed a ****load of graphite all
over the contacts and tape guide, which of course, then gets on the
head and the capstan. No isopropynol, no swabs...a soft paper towel
with a slight dab of MBTE-laden gasoline, applied with a gloved
finger, would have to suffice to clean the guide and the capstan. I
was too cowardly to apply it to the head, so a pass with a Kleenex
would have to do. Back on the road, the cart played as well as any,
sounding quite nice. The problem? I'd just done a thorough cleaning
and demagging of this deck two days before. So...four tapes, enough
crap built up to bring things to a dead stop...NOT an enviable service
record. Again, recollections of those 8 track days in the '60s and
'70s would pop into frame...memories of cleaning freinds' 8 tracks
seemingly constantly, getting that grey goop out of there and having
everything pristine, only to have it come back two weeks later in
similarly bad shape.

So, things haven't really changed. In fact, it's a credit to these
old relics that they can still perform as well as they do, given their
superannuation. It was just a ****ed up idea, an endless loop with
lubricated backing...or was it? Remember, Fidelipac rules the
broadcast world even today as the cartridge format of choice unless
digital conversion's been undertaken. So why do these consumer
prerecords screw up so often? Well, as investgation just a few
minutes ago revealed, it was the Liberty cart, a type I've never seen
anywhere else, that had been shedding LOTS of lubricant and set up the
succeeding failure. What was weird was that the backing on this tape
seemed to have too MUCH lubricant on it, and it wasn't dry; in fact,
it seemed almost like molybdenum grease! I could even leave a clear
fingerprint in it. What gives with THIS? I recall having another
cart, a GRT "K"-wrap, do a similar thing to me last month. A deft
pass with a tissue wipe, the goop was gone, leaving a shiny graphite
surface. My theory: perhaps at one time this cart had a "melting"
pinch roller, or even pressure pads, and the crap had gotten all over
the backing of the tape before it eventually failed. Someone had
fixed it somehow, but never cleaned the tape's backing..a daunting
task for anyone. ANOTHER foible of 8 tracks, especially aging ones.

So, my 8 track outing was less than satisfying, full of fiddling, and
brought back memories of less-than-stellar performance back in 8
track's heyday. True, 4 track had similar foibles, but 8 track took
the cake for unreliability. But when it sounded well, it was pretty
good indeed, better than I remember most cassettes...but sorry, CDs
are far, FAR better all around. One thing about CDs AND
cassettes...you put 'em in, they play, they WORK...over and over and
over again. With 8 track, you put 'em in, they play...maybe..and
require lots of owner maintenance, something most people were ill
equipped to do at all. Thus, I find one premise of Russ' film "So
Wrong They're Right," that 8 track was supplanted only by crass
commercialism and "planned obsolescence," to be debunked with
finality using plausible evidence...it was just a ****TY design that
needed replacement! Remember, the first Lear carts were basically
cheap 'n dirty frauds, being mastered from store-bought LPs onto
cobbled up Muntz carts, so there's little to recommend Lear's efforts
as anything other than something with which to make a quick buck.

But, 8 track is SOOOO much fun to work on...at least, for me.

dB

"DeserTBoB" wrote in message
...
SNIP
Rivers got done, and I reached for one I'd never really listened to at
all for 34 years, CTA's first. This was with all the wild feedback
stuff Steve Kath (who later blew his brains out) did, before CTA
became "Chicago" after getting sued by "Hizzoner" Richard Daley, and
before selling out to Clive Davis' Columbia hit machine.
SNIP

dB

Steve Kath is still alive and well, it was his brother Terry, a member of
Chicago who blew his brains out while cleaning a gun.

TC8trax

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:01:24 -0500, "TC8trax" wrote:

Steve Kath is still alive and well, it was his brother Terry, a member of
Chicago who blew his brains out while cleaning a gun. snip

Correct, sorry for the erratum, and thanks for the correction.
Different versions of the story are out there, but the one from those
who were there say Terry was playing Russian roulette with a .38 while
loaded on white beauties. The "sanitized" version was that he was
cleaning a gun at the time. How does a revolver go off when you're
cleaning it, I'd like to know. All this time I've been putting my
life in danger every time I clean mine, and didn't know it!

dB

I always figured the people that shot themselves while cleaning a firearm were
an example of the principle of "survival of the fittest" in action.

I'd love to read Charlie's take on this, but you know what? The kill file is
working great! I only see comments of his that have been quoted in someone
else's posting, and fortunately that's happening less than it used to. Life
makes more sense. Logic is safe and sound.

--Bob Farace

"I only believe in fire." --Anais Nin

"DeserTBoB" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 09:01:24 -0500, "TC8trax" wrote:

Steve Kath is still alive and well, it was his brother Terry, a member of
Chicago who blew his brains out while cleaning a gun. snip

Correct, sorry for the erratum, and thanks for the correction.
Different versions of the story are out there, but the one from those
who were there say Terry was playing Russian roulette with a .38 while
loaded on white beauties. The "sanitized" version was that he was
cleaning a gun at the time. How does a revolver go off when you're
cleaning it, I'd like to know. All this time I've been putting my
life in danger every time I clean mine, and didn't know it!

dB

It's them invisible bullets!

TC8trax

On 12 Nov 2004 18:24:57 GMT, (Bluemuse) wrote:

I'd love to read Charlie's take on this snip

Why? Trying masochism? LOL

I only see comments of his that have been quoted in someone
else's posting, and fortunately that's happening less than it used to. Life
makes more sense. Logic is safe and sound. snip

Yes, the "kill file method" of eliminating NG pests is a time honored
and tested means of getting rid of them. Once they figure they're
being ignored in toto, they simply fade away to go bother another
group. Due to the low volume of posts on a.c.8-t-t, I sometimes think
I'm in the same kill file bin as Noodles!

dB

You're not?

Due to the low volume of posts on a.c.8-t-t, I sometimes think
I'm in the same kill file bin as Noodles!

dB

DeserTBoB wrote in message . ..
Certainly, I'm more into this 8 track mode to explore its technical
aspects more than anything else, which seems to be the antithesis of
why everyone else is into it, so one has to take my comments based on
that.

You are assuming a lot there D-Bob- and I must say you are mistaken
with that assumption.

I'd already conceded that CDs
would be more satisfying in ALL parameters, an opinion which is now
solidified.

You're wrong there too. 8-track has more depth of sound than any CD
or MP3 or DVD audio- but you need a tube amp to hear it- and high
efficiency speakers (93db/watt/meter or better) You listen to a good
SET tube amp setup with a Telex or Akai or Marantz deck, you'll
****...

Needless to say, the quest for a trouble free music
program failed, bringing back memories of why I decided it sucked back
in the '70s.

I disagree, it kicked ass in the 1970's, I can still hear the crisp
guitar chords of Nugent Double Live Gonzo and Who Live At Leeds coming
from my buddies' GMC truck flush-mount, like it was yesterday...what
sucked was, they stopped making the tapes new- or we'd all still be
buying them new.


As with all the carts I put in my listening collection,
this one had been opened up, cleaned, lubricated with PTFE, pinch
roller cleaned and surfaced as necessary, a fresh double taped angle
splice if necessary and a new Win-Gib installed, so it was in what I
consider "good" condition, regardless of the appearance of the label,
since labels on 8 track are an afterthought anyway.

Now you know why I don't spend money on "original" pads.

NOTHING takes my attention away from the
music at hand more than a failure of the medium its recorded on.
First, the flutter was barely evident on the top end, and then went
away, and then returned with greater intrusion. Then, it
started...that same ritual I used to perform back in the '60s, that of
trying to get the damned cartridge to play properly. You know the
drill: pull it out, "reseat" it, wiggle it fore and aft, side to
side, find that "sweet spot" where it sounds good again. As it was,
all it took was to remove and reinsert the cart twice to make the
speed perturbations go away and the old-time southern pop sound of

Your deck simply needs the capstan resurfaced. You can clean, align,
adjust, and tweak carts and decks 'til hell won't have it, with a
shiny capstan it's gonna drag, drag, drag...and what condition was the
motor and belt in ?? Tension spring ?? (I've often had to put 2 on
decks to get them to work right- 30 year old springs lose tension with
time...)



The dreaded flutter started first, causing me to start the
"positioning" ritual again...to, fro, back, forth, up, down...AHA! Up
does it! I recall the old high school/college trick, shoving a
matchbook under the cart body to keep it playing. Alas...it's the
21st century, NO one carries matches anymore. The agent's property
description card, doubled over a few times, works well in a pinch.
OK, now I can listen...for two minutes, when the tape started
wandering deliriously off track...fading out, then in, then out, then
a hint of adjoinging tracks...maddening!

Ditto- capstan needs resurface.

Out the cart comes for a
peek into the front while trying to drive at 65 per...NOT recommended.
I pondered the expressions of those passing me seeing me staring into
the end of an 8 track cartridge in 2004...priceless!

Many a car has been wrecked due to twiddling with 8-track tapes and
decks while driving.



I decided to top off fuel, have a cup of coffee, and investigate the
cart while doing so. NOT the problem, this cart! As it turns out,
one of the previously played carts had shed a ****load of graphite all
over the contacts and tape guide, which of course, then gets on the
head and the capstan. No isopropynol, no swabs...a soft paper towel
with a slight dab of MBTE-laden gasoline, applied with a gloved
finger, would have to suffice to clean the guide and the capstan

That is one of the FEW times you should have one of those "pin ball"
tape head cleaners with the scotchbrite capstan cleaner built in, and
the handle to sweep the tape head clean. They do come in handy in the
car, when alcohol/swabs just ain't around.

So, things haven't really changed. In fact, it's a credit to these
old relics that they can still perform as well as they do, given their
superannuation. It was just a ****ed up idea, an endless loop with
lubricated backing...or was it?

I'll agree, it's amazing this format still even works- but you're
wrong on the "f'd up idea" thing- Here's why- the reason 8-tracks
still work in spite of themselves and being 30+ years old, is that the
technology was actually pretty darn good for 1966. It was a "poor
man's reel to reel", a way to get 1/4" analog magnetic tape in the
car, and play LP's while driving. COOL.

Well, as investgation just a few
minutes ago revealed, it was the Liberty cart, a type I've never seen
anywhere else, that had been shedding LOTS of lubricant and set up the
succeeding failure. What was weird was that the backing on this tape
seemed to have too MUCH lubricant on it, and it wasn't dry; in fact,
it seemed almost like molybdenum grease! I could even leave a clear
fingerprint in it. What gives with THIS? I recall having another
cart, a GRT "K"-wrap, do a similar thing to me last month. A deft
pass with a tissue wipe, the goop was gone, leaving a shiny graphite
surface.


GRT and Liberty carts are known for quality problems- although I had
Creedence Live in Europe and Chronicle- we played them to death since
1978 and they still play. I agree, labels were always an
afterthought- these tapes basically littered the floor of our cars and
were stepped on, until we wanted to play them.

My theory: perhaps at one time this cart had a "melting"
pinch roller, or even pressure pads, and the crap had gotten all over
the backing of the tape before it eventually failed. Someone had
fixed it somehow, but never cleaned the tape's backing..a daunting
task for anyone. ANOTHER foible of 8 tracks, especially aging ones.


Doubtful- a gooey roller will nuke a cart instantly- it wouldn't play
at all. The problem with your tapes is, you live in Arizona, and they
are heat fatigued. 8-track tapes actually last longer up north where
it's colder- all my original tapes I got 1976-onward still play fine.
Better off storing them in a cold dry place then a reall hot place.


So, my 8 track outing was less than satisfying, full of fiddling, and
brought back memories of less-than-stellar performance back in 8
track's heyday. True, 4 track had similar foibles, but 8 track took
the cake for unreliability. But when it sounded well, it was pretty
good indeed, better than I remember most cassettes...but sorry, CDs
are far, FAR better all around. One thing about CDs AND
cassettes...you put 'em in, they play, they WORK...over and over and
over again.


I disagree-and it sounds like you are just about done messing with
8-tracks. Cassette tapes squeal like hell when they get old. And
I've had a few cassette decks that I tossed cuz they were unfixable-
the little rubber wheels in them wear out, then they're junk !! With
8-track, change the belt, away it goes.

With 8 track, you put 'em in, they play...maybe..and
require lots of owner maintenance, something most people were ill
equipped to do at all. Thus, I find one premise of Russ' film "So
Wrong They're Right," that 8 track was supplanted only by crass
commercialism and "planned obsolescence," to be debunked with
finality using plausible evidence...it was just a ****TY design that
needed replacement! Remember, the first Lear carts were basically
cheap 'n dirty frauds, being mastered from store-bought LPs onto
cobbled up Muntz carts, so there's little to recommend Lear's efforts
as anything other than something with which to make a quick buck.

But, 8 track is SOOOO much fun to work on...at least, for me.

dB


Back when the Muntz 4-track and early 8-tracks were first made circa
1960's, it was legal to copy any tapes from LP's, as long as you paid
something around like 2 cents per copy to the rights holders. The law
is still on the books if you look for it. ANYONE was free to copy and
sell music by just serving notice to do so, and paying the fee- you
could not be refused. It was federal law that protected the consumer
and other mfgrs. from the creation of large music monopolies, that was
put in place in the early 1900's when records first came out. That law
was somewhat circumvented and amended, with a new law in the early
1970's that gave sole DISTRIBUTION rights to record companies. So
those early tapes weren't "frauds", they were 100% legitimate. You
can make all the CD-R's you want today, 1000's if you want- just don't
try to distribute them. You can't even give them away for FREE, which
is why the MP3 file sharers are being hunted like animals today by
Sony, etc.

Today, I put AC motors in 3 decks, and found out something really
interesting about AC motored decks regarding speed control. I fixed a
MIIDA deck with external head adjustment knob and AC motor- I must say
quite satisfying, to say goodbye to crosstalk with a thumbwheel
adjustment.

On 12 Nov 2004 22:10:49 GMT, (Bgaswoodie) wrote:

You're not? snip

Well...evidently not in yours, at any rate! You're not one of those
"goo goo groups" people, are you? LOL

dB

... the reason 8-tracks
still work...
It was a "poor
man's reel to reel", a way to get 1/4" analog magnetic tape in the
car, and play LP's while driving. COOL.

Hear, hear! But I still use them a lot at home. later, ron