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PING: Aram
I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters.
1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825 over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the truth on this? 2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4." 3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his work? James |
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#2
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Aram
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters. 1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825 over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the truth on this? 2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4." 3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his work? James Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I learned that there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is speculation, and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse dies, so there might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself. AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date. (Other than to see that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the Browning 2 and the Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the Browning 3; the high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these varieties which are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and complete cuds caused by reverse rim to rim die breaks. The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to distinguish from B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not under the curl, but lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die marriage of the three known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red Book. I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this series when it comes to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and should not be listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for collectors who are deeply into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you think? I also think that the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of the existence of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of Large and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers from a lack of "Quarter Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-) All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it wasn't readily accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why, but I have heard that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his collection shortly after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think. There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started collecting these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever changing conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to boredom. HTH. Aram. |
#3
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Aram
"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters. 1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825 over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the truth on this? 2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4." 3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his work? James Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I learned that there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is speculation, and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse dies, so there might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself. AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date. (Other than to see that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the Browning 2 and the Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the Browning 3; the high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these varieties which are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and complete cuds caused by reverse rim to rim die breaks. The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to distinguish from B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not under the curl, but lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die marriage of the three known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red Book. I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this series when it comes to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and should not be listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for collectors who are deeply into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you think? I also think that the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of the existence of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of Large and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers from a lack of "Quarter Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-) All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it wasn't readily accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why, but I have heard that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his collection shortly after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think. There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started collecting these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever changing conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to boredom. HTH. Aram. Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8) I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is the same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of the bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to attribute the date/variety from the reverse alone! That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope. What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are rather rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818 B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one? James |
#4
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Aram
"Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... "Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters. 1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825 over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the truth on this? 2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4." 3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his work? James Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I learned that there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is speculation, and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse dies, so there might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself. AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date. (Other than to see that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the Browning 2 and the Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the Browning 3; the high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these varieties which are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and complete cuds caused by reverse rim to rim die breaks. The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to distinguish from B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not under the curl, but lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die marriage of the three known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red Book. I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this series when it comes to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and should not be listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for collectors who are deeply into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you think? I also think that the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of the existence of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of Large and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers from a lack of "Quarter Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-) All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it wasn't readily accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why, but I have heard that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his collection shortly after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think. There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started collecting these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever changing conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to boredom. HTH. Aram. Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8) I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is the same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of the bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to attribute the date/variety from the reverse alone! That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope. What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are rather rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818 B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one? James You're welcome. That reverse is also found on the 1828 Browning 2. I believe this marriage to be pretty rare. (R5) I agree with your assessment of the 1818/5. It is not rare, AFAIK, and the same can be said for a lot of "overdates" in the series. The most commonly found variety of the 1819 Bust Quarter is the Browning 3, with the repunched 5 and what looks like a colon after the C. But if you find this marriage on eBay, it is accompanied by a lot of hoopla about how rare it must be. It is listed as a Rarity 1. This means there are in excess of 1,250 examples believed to exist. That is a lot of examples. The same is true of the 1806/5, a Rarity 2 variety. (501-1,250 known). The sad part is how excited folks can get about how clear the 5 is under the 6. They ALL look like that. Like a 1917 Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter with a FULL HEAD!! Jay Cline estimates that 80% of this issue have great strikes and full heads. Or the 1881 S Morgan Dollar. It is probably easy to hype typically found qualities of coins unfamiliar to newbies. That's why study is so important. I remember getting all excited at the opportunity to pick up a nice example of the Stone Mountain Commemorative Half Dollar with very clear hub doubling on the obverse. Then I found out about a third of them come with that feature. More learning. Ain't this fun? Aram. |
#5
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Aram
"Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... "Aram H. Haroutunian" wrote in message ... "Mr. Jaggers" lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com wrote in message ... I'm trying to figure out the 1825 quarters. 1) Browning clearly states that B-1 is "1825 over 1822" while B-2 is "1825 over 1823." But for B-3, which shares the same obverse die as B-2, he beats around the bush, not quite calling it "1825 over 1824." What's the truth on this? 2) Isn't it odd that Greysheet and Coin Values list values for all three overdates, but the Redbook only lists values for "5 over 2" and "5 over 4." 3) Have any varieties beyond B-3 been identified since Browning did his work? James Excellent questions, all. When I got into this series many years ago, I learned that there are two obverse dies and three reverse dies used in 1825. There is speculation, and I believe Larry Briggs found very tiny differences in the obverse dies, so there might be another, but I have not seen these differences myself. AFAIK, no collector of this series by die marriage looks at the date. (Other than to see that it is an 1825.) We use the reverse to distinguish between the Browning 2 and the Browning 3 by the location of the value, 25 C. The low 25 C. is the Browning 3; the high 25 C. is the Browning 2. There are die states in both of these varieties which are of interest to specialists, including highly valued retained and complete cuds caused by reverse rim to rim die breaks. The 1825 B1 uses a completely different obverse die. It is quite easy to distinguish from B2 and 3 by the location of the 13th star (Lowest right star). It is not under the curl, but lies to the side (east) of it. This is, I believe, the rarest (R5) die marriage of the three known 1825 varieties. This was the one with the wrong picture in the Red Book. I am of the opinion that price guides have limited usefulness in this series when it comes to comparative values, demand, supply, and , in general, what should and should not be listed. They are, I think, for popular consumption, and not for collectors who are deeply into the series. But that is true of other series as well, don't you think? I also think that the EAC has had a major impact on collectors of early copper because of the existence of "Copper Quotes by Robinson" which describes and values all varieties of Large and Half Cents in one place. I think that the Bust Quarter series suffers from a lack of "Quarter Quotes by Haroutunian", but I am still working on it. :-) All kidding aside, there was an attempt to publish such a work, but it wasn't readily accepted by the Bust Quarter collectors of that time. I am not sure why, but I have heard that the project was rejected when the author and researcher sold his collection shortly after publication. Made it look kinda suspicious, I think. There have been a couple of new die marriage discoveries since I started collecting these beauties. And the question of rarity remains an ongoing and ever changing conundrum. To me, that's where the fun lies. Sureness often leads to boredom. HTH. Aram. Thanks for that thoughtful response, Aram. I'll look forward to the publication of the first edition of "QQH." 8) I'm fascinated by Browning's observation that the reverse of 1825 B-1 is the same as the reverse for the 1824, with the spike coming off the back of the bottom arrowhead toward the olive branch. That would allow one to attribute the date/variety from the reverse alone! That said, I looked at the 5s on my 1825 B-2 and B-3 under a 30X scope. What a mess! The 5s seem to be misshapen, and the underlying 4s are rather rough, to say the least. I can see why specialists don't get too excited about these "overdates." I'm thinking much the same thing about the 1818 B-1, the "1818 over 1815." What's your take on that one? James You're welcome. That reverse is also found on the 1828 Browning 2. I believe this marriage to be pretty rare. (R5) I agree with your assessment of the 1818/5. It is not rare, AFAIK, and the same can be said for a lot of "overdates" in the series. The most commonly found variety of the 1819 Bust Quarter is the Browning 3, with the repunched 5 and what looks like a colon after the C. But if you find this marriage on eBay, it is accompanied by a lot of hoopla about how rare it must be. It is listed as a Rarity 1. This means there are in excess of 1,250 examples believed to exist. That is a lot of examples. The same is true of the 1806/5, a Rarity 2 variety. (501-1,250 known). The sad part is how excited folks can get about how clear the 5 is under the 6. They ALL look like that. Like a 1917 Type 1 Standing Liberty Quarter with a FULL HEAD!! Jay Cline estimates that 80% of this issue have great strikes and full heads. Or the 1881 S Morgan Dollar. It is probably easy to hype typically found qualities of coins unfamiliar to newbies. That's why study is so important. I remember getting all excited at the opportunity to pick up a nice example of the Stone Mountain Commemorative Half Dollar with very clear hub doubling on the obverse. Then I found out about a third of them come with that feature. More learning. Ain't this fun? Well, I for one DO get excited about how clear that 1806 over 5 quarter looks! Even more so the 1807 over 6 large cent. There's just something about that kind of thing. One thing I REALLY like is the terminal state of 1819 B-4, where it looks like someone had attempted to efface the date. There's an 1817 large cent like that, too, N-12 if memory serves me properly. The reverse of the 1811 dime is neat, too, especially if you have a late-die state. And I do, heh, heh. BTW, the fourth edition of Cline's book just came out, in case you're interested. I picked up a copy at a show last weekend, but haven't realy gone through it yet. Dagnabbit, I looked at my Stone Mountain, and it's just garden variety, no hub doubling or dub hubbling, or anything. Yeah, I've seen the hype about the 19-3, but eBay seems to be full of hyperbole. I look at the scan, then the book, then the price guide, and then usually move on. But not always. James |
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