How PCGS and NGC defrauded me out of over $100,000

Here is an interesting post on the PCGS board that sheds some light that the
coin doctors might not behind the class action law suit. This post was
zapped by Carol J.



------

I was fortunate enough to inherit a large "raw" coin collection from my
Grandfather who spent close to 150k during the 1970s threw 1986 on coins.
Well I signed up for a collector account with PCGS and NGC, and began the
grading process. Some of the coins came back worth as much 10k, so naturally
I sold a few on Ebay to dealers. One day I was bored and I decided to check
on the certification numbers for my graded and much to my surprise, these
dealers were resubmitted my coins, and coins that were graded MS63-64 were
suddenly MS66 and above. Not to mention a Morgan I sent in came back to me
as a MS64 and I sold it to a dealer. The dealer resubmits under his dealer
account and guess what, his grade is MS66 Vam Broken Bonnet. I started doing
experiments, I have distributed coins to my friends throughout the country,
and they sought out the largest PCGS/NGC authorized dealers in there areas.
Long story short, the grades that came back to the dealer nearly tripled the
value than those given under a collector account. And they say there is no
favoritism, LOL! Smells like fraud.

Why do you guys trust these people with your coins? I have been defrauded
out of nearly 100k over fraudulent grades. Do the alleged top tier grading
companies make errors like not recognizing a MS66 Broken Bonnet Vam. Do
coins regularly go from MS63 to MS66? I guess the fact that I am not David
Lawrence Coins or that I am new to the coin world, some grader/dealer one in
the same at PCGS and NGC thought they could defraud my family out of the
true value of our coins.

I have twenty examples that total an excess of 100k in "grading errors".
This is the last example I am going to share, and it is quite alarming. I
sent a Walker 1917 S OBV to PCGS and NGC under my collector accounts it came
back questionable mint mark. I gave it to a dealer to submit not telling him
anything. Guess what? The grade that came back to him was MS63, for me
worthless for a PCGS authorized Dealer 5k. Every person that has submitted
under a collector account (minus pcgs/ngc insiders) should get together and
file a class action lawsuit, I will provide the attorney. Basically this
good old boy club has defrauded honest collectors out of millions in favor
of large dealers, and the graders that work there are also Dealers! It
benefits these guys to keep collector grades low, especially if they
themselves are attempting to sell a coin that you sent in for grading.

I am going to post all the discrepancy's and have also hired an attorney to
take out ads in the major newspapers across the country. Stating the facts
and letting collectors be the judge. One area will have the collector grade
given and the other will have the dealer grade..the total $$$ difference
will drop your draw. I hope that people will read this and demand that these
companies be made to answer for there fraudulent grades, write your local
congressmen, senators, the DOJ, if you are collector that has been taken
advantage of by NGC and PCGS. A Congressional Investigation of some sort
needs to take place.

Good Luck to all of you have been defrauded by PCGS and NGC

One day I was bored and I decided to check on the certification
numbers for my graded and much to my surprise, these dealers were
resubmitted my coins, and coins that were graded MS63-64 were suddenly
MS66 and above.

********************

I am not sure that I follow the above. Is the poster saying that the
grading services used the same numbers for the same coin when
resubmitted?

I think some detailed examples are necessary, not a generalized
discussion

In , on
01/23/2011
at 08:52 AM, Chas Edwards said:

I think some detailed examples are necessary, not a generalized discussion

I'm not sure how the re-grading process works, but if I were worried about
finding rare varieties (VAM's), I'd learn how to do so myself. Don't you
have to sumbit a coin WITH a specified variety designation and they just
confirm it, or will they attribute coins for you? I have not submitted a
coin in over a decade, but seem to remember specifying by attribution (for
bust halves) and simply having the grading service agree or not.

If a dealer took the time to attribute a given coin and re-submitted it with
this new information, there is no foul as far as that is concerned.

Nick

On 1/23/2011 8:52 AM, Chas Edwards wrote:
One day I was bored and I decided to check on the certification
numbers for my graded and much to my surprise, these dealers were
resubmitted my coins, and coins that were graded MS63-64 were suddenly
MS66 and above.

********************

I am not sure that I follow the above. Is the poster saying that the
grading services used the same numbers for the same coin when
resubmitted?

I think some detailed examples are necessary, not a generalized
discussion

Of course, this thread is worthless without pictures.

I am quite sure that I have posted this here before, but to reiterate:
I have a local professional coin dealer friend that is an experienced
brick and mortar store coin dealer for 30+ years experience in the
trade.

They bought a rather advanced coin collection from an estate which
included a beautiful, mouth watering $3.00 gold proof that we both
agreed was a Proof 65, if not better. I have a good eye, and so do
they and we coordinate opinions on many large deals, and we have
access several high end microscopes (I have great equipment and so do
they). I also have access to a professional lab with equipment which
costs more then my house. This scanning electron microscope costs
nearly $1 million and I can play with it on Sundays. We have access
to better scales, microscopes, specific gravity testing, metallurgy,
and non-destructive X-Ray than any grading service in the world.
Don't mess with me, I am very, very good at what I do because of the
equipment I can access.

They submitted the coin to PCGS and NCG under their name as well as my
name and also under the name of a few other Philadelphia, New Jersey,
and New York well known dealers for certification. After 7 or 8
attempts, the coin came back as MS64 Proof, every time. PCGS and NGC
both agreed PF64, eight, nine attempts.

Then, in Baltimore, a few years ago, an agent for David Ha**, bought
the coin (raw, cracked out from several certification attempts) from
my dealer friend at wholesale, just under PF64 Bid, and the coin
appeared on David Ha**'s website as Proof65 Star a few days later.
Very convenient, or just a fluke???

The asking price moved from Mid-Teens to Mid-Five figures overnight.

Grading services (ALL) are dirty scum bags. Yes, even the ones you
think are legitimate, they are not.

The Slabbing Game is just that, a dirty game. Buyer Beware.

Now, I trade raw coins only, bullion gold, platinum, and silver bar.
I am done with slabbed.

If I buy slabbed, it is immediately relieved of the plastic and label
is discarded.

How many Trade Dollars have you seen in PCGS and NGC labeled as MS63
and MS 64 that have obvious hairlines from cleaning? These should be
"body bagged", yet they litter Heritage and other top tier auction
houses, disgusting.

"DanU" wrote in message
...
....
They submitted the coin to PCGS and NCG under their name as well as my
name and also under the name of a few other Philadelphia, New Jersey,
and New York well known dealers for certification. After 7 or 8
attempts, the coin came back as MS64 Proof, every time. PCGS and NGC
both agreed PF64, eight, nine attempts.

Then, in Baltimore, a few years ago, an agent for David Ha**, bought
the coin (raw, cracked out from several certification attempts) from
my dealer friend at wholesale, just under PF64 Bid, and the coin
appeared on David Ha**'s website as Proof65 Star a few days later.
Very convenient, or just a fluke???

The asking price moved from Mid-Teens to Mid-Five figures overnight.

Grading services (ALL) are dirty scum bags. Yes, even the ones you
think are legitimate, they are not.
....

Your own experience in "eight, nine attempts" showed consistency by the TPGs.
Then you base your entire assessment on one coin.
Not logical.

"DanU" wrote:

Then, in Baltimore, a few years ago, an agent for David Ha**, bought
the coin (raw, cracked out from several certification attempts) from
my dealer friend at wholesale, just under PF64 Bid, and the coin
appeared on David Ha**'s website as Proof65 Star a few days later.
Very convenient, or just a fluke???

Fascinating, considering that David Ha**'s website doesn't sell
NGC coins, and PCGS, as far as I know, has never given "star"
designations to coins.

--
Mike Benveniste -- (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain

"DanU" wrote in message
...
I am quite sure that I have posted this here before, but to reiterate:
I have a local professional coin dealer friend that is an experienced
brick and mortar store coin dealer for 30+ years experience in the
trade.

They bought a rather advanced coin collection from an estate which
included a beautiful, mouth watering $3.00 gold proof that we both
agreed was a Proof 65, if not better. I have a good eye, and so do
they and we coordinate opinions on many large deals, and we have
access several high end microscopes (I have great equipment and so do
they). I also have access to a professional lab with equipment which
costs more then my house. This scanning electron microscope costs
nearly $1 million and I can play with it on Sundays. We have access
to better scales, microscopes, specific gravity testing, metallurgy,
and non-destructive X-Ray than any grading service in the world.
Don't mess with me, I am very, very good at what I do because of the
equipment I can access.

They submitted the coin to PCGS and NCG under their name as well as my
name and also under the name of a few other Philadelphia, New Jersey,
and New York well known dealers for certification. After 7 or 8
attempts, the coin came back as MS64 Proof, every time. PCGS and NGC
both agreed PF64, eight, nine attempts.

Then, in Baltimore, a few years ago, an agent for David Ha**, bought
the coin (raw, cracked out from several certification attempts) from
my dealer friend at wholesale, just under PF64 Bid, and the coin
appeared on David Ha**'s website as Proof65 Star a few days later.
Very convenient, or just a fluke???

The asking price moved from Mid-Teens to Mid-Five figures overnight.

Grading services (ALL) are dirty scum bags. Yes, even the ones you
think are legitimate, they are not.

The Slabbing Game is just that, a dirty game. Buyer Beware.

Now, I trade raw coins only, bullion gold, platinum, and silver bar.
I am done with slabbed.

If I buy slabbed, it is immediately relieved of the plastic and label
is discarded.

How many Trade Dollars have you seen in PCGS and NGC labeled as MS63
and MS 64 that have obvious hairlines from cleaning? These should be
"body bagged", yet they litter Heritage and other top tier auction
houses, disgusting.

Gotta wonder if it's a case of more $$ and greed than sense with anyone who
would pay the fees and shipping involved with repeatedly submitting the same
5-figure coin be graded eight or nine consecutive times. And what good did
that $1million microscope and the other doodads you're bragging about do for
you?

Don't mess with you? Sounds like one TPG did just that ........ and won.
You'd best be careful playing with the big boys. Maybe you should have
stuck with raw bullion to begin with. Appears like you ventured into a
league over your head.

On Jan 25, 11:03*pm, DanU wrote:
I am quite sure that I have posted this here before, but to reiterate:
I have a local professional coin dealer friend that is an experienced
brick and mortar store coin dealer for 30+ years experience in the
trade.

They bought a rather advanced coin collection from an estate which
included a beautiful, mouth watering $3.00 gold proof that we both
agreed was a Proof 65, if not better. *I have a good eye, and so do
they and we coordinate opinions on many large deals, and we have
access several high end microscopes (I have great equipment and so do
they). *I also have access to a professional lab with equipment which
costs more then my house. *This scanning electron microscope costs
nearly $1 million and I can play with it on Sundays. *We have access
to *better scales, microscopes, specific gravity testing, metallurgy,
and non-destructive X-Ray than any grading service in the world.
Don't mess with me, I am very, very good at what I do because of the
equipment I can access.

They submitted the coin to PCGS and NCG under their name as well as my
name and also under the name of a few other Philadelphia, New Jersey,
and New York well known dealers for certification. *After 7 or 8
attempts, the coin came back as MS64 Proof, every time. *PCGS and NGC
both agreed PF64, eight, nine attempts.

Then, in Baltimore, a *few years ago, an agent for David Ha**, bought
the coin (raw, cracked out from several certification attempts) from
my dealer friend at wholesale, just under PF64 Bid, and the coin
appeared on David Ha**'s website as Proof65 Star a few days later.
Very convenient, or just a fluke???

The asking price moved from Mid-Teens to Mid-Five figures overnight.

Grading services (ALL) are dirty scum bags. *Yes, even the ones you
think are legitimate, they are not.

The Slabbing Game is just that, a dirty game. *Buyer Beware.

Now, I trade raw coins only, bullion gold, platinum, and silver bar.
I am done with slabbed.

If I buy slabbed, it is immediately relieved of the plastic and label
is discarded.

How many Trade Dollars have you seen in PCGS and NGC labeled as MS63
and MS 64 that have obvious hairlines from cleaning? *These should be
"body bagged", yet they litter Heritage and other top tier auction
houses, disgusting.

DanU attacks TPGs over a supposed high-quality $3 gold piece, yet is
just a tad short on pictures and details.

In article
,
Chas Edwards wrote:

[snip]

DanU attacks TPGs over a supposed high-quality $3 gold piece, yet is
just a tad short on pictures and details.

I personally don't play the crackout game, but I know a number of
deelers who do. Almost every one has at least one story about a coin
that they submitted multiple times trying to get an upgrade, eventually
gave up, wholesaled the coin at a strong price for the grade, then saw
the coin with an upgrade in the buying deelers case at the next show.

I know for certain that one of my closest deeler friends had a very PQ
MS64 better date $20 Saint that he sent in five times trying for an
upgrade, without success. One of an auction company's consignment
directors tried to get the coin for auction, but my friend declined,
saying he was going to try for an upgrade again. The director asked "If
I can get it in a 65 holder will you consign it?". The deeler said yes,
the director took the coin, and it showed up in the next auction in a
five-holder. Of course it could simply be coincidence that the auction
company got the upgrade on the first shot while the individual deeler
couldn't get it in five tries ...

--
Ken Barr Numismatics * * * *email:
P. O. Box 32541 * * * * * * website: *http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA *95152 * * Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir cards, etc.
408-272-3247 * **NEXT SHOW: San Jose CC (Doubletree Hotel), Jan 28 - 30