Terrorism and Counterfeits

No multinational corporation suffers a loss when a few thousand fake
ancients or fake Trade Dollars are run off and sold a few hundred at a
time here or there. The key problem with criminality is that it
throws all criminals together. Cigarettes are heavily taxed in one
place; pork is illegal in another. "Money laundering" (so-called) is
nothing more than tax evasion and while we shudder at the thought that
criminals evade American taxes, is that the same crime as evading the
taxes of a military dictatorship? Unfortunately for the sophists,
moral gray areas shade into worse conditions. No one who buys a fake
coin can trace the paths of commerce involved in that transaction.

Follow the suggested links. Search on Google for other news reporting
from reputable sources. Counterfeit goods come from China, Panama,
Nigeria and many other places. Commerce is global.

-------------------------------------

Terrorist Counterfeit Connection
Aired December 1, 2003 - 08:18 ET

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the price may be right for
that fake Gucci bag or imitation Rolex watch being sold on the street,
but buyer beware. Your cash could actually be supporting terrorists.

Rachel Erhenfeld is the author of "Funding Evil: How Terrorism is
Financed and How To Stop It."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/01/ltm.17.html

Interpol: Terrorist Eye Counterfeit Goods
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 25, 2004
Filed at 1:59 p.m. ET

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- Terror groups increasingly are turning to
the lucrative trade in counterfeit goods -- from brake pads to music
CDs -- to finance their operations, but governments are only slowly
waking up to the threat, the head of Interpol warned Tuesday.

Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble cited the seizure of $1.2
million worth of counterfeit German brake pads and shock absorbers in
Lebanon last October. A subsequent inquiry found that profits were
destined for supporters of Hezbollah, considered a terrorist
organization by Washington.

Last year, Danish customs intercepted a container filled with
counterfeit shampoos and other toiletries allegedly sent by a member
of al-Qaida.

http://www.cardinalcommerce.com/arti...%20Goods.h tm

TESTIMONY OF LARRY C. JOHNSON
BERG ASSOCIATES, LLC
16 July 2003
BEFORE THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HEARING ON "Intellectual Property Crimes: Are Proceeds From
Counterfeited Goods Funding Terrorism "

For example, we helped seize a dvd-based game system
that imitated the artwork of a SONY PLAYSTATIONS but the box was
labeled "POLYSTATION". One of the first raids my company conducted in
the Colon Free Zone of Panama was against Overseas Dispatcher,
International, a company owned by Mr. Walid Zayed. Mr. Zayed has
direct relations with Palestinian terrorists and claims to be the
Latin American representative for the "Intifada". Mr. Zayed, who is
also a convicted money launderer, was selling products that outwardly
used the same color and artwork as Sunbeam OSTER-brand products but
bore the name, "ASTOR".

Counterfeit products bear the labels of Sony, Ralph Lauren, Calvin
Klein, Philip Morris, Black and Decker, Nike, Reebok, and Sunbeam but
can be had for a price that is 60% to 70% of the original.

http://wwwa.house.gov/international_...08/johnson.pdf

----------------------------

On 20 Jun 2004 05:11:46 -0700, Michael E. Marotta
wrote:

No multinational corporation suffers a loss when a few thousand fake
ancients or fake Trade Dollars are run off and sold a few hundred at a
time here or there. The key problem with criminality is that it
throws all criminals together.
It does? Maybe in a large sense by applying the label criminal to petty
crimes, misdemeanors, felonies, and murderers but language gives us the
ability to further refine the definitions.

Cigarettes are heavily taxed in one
place; pork is illegal in another.

Laws vary from place to place, true enough...

"Money laundering" (so-called) is
nothing more than tax evasion and while we shudder at the thought that
criminals evade American taxes, is that the same crime as evading the
taxes of a military dictatorship?

Money laundering is not only evading taxes but also concealing evidence of
a crime. A little more complicated than simple tax evasion.

Unfortunately for the sophists,
moral gray areas shade into worse conditions. No one who buys a fake
coin can trace the paths of commerce involved in that transaction.

I'm sure some people can. Hey Mike meet Bill, he knows a Bulgraian who'se
friend makes lots of high quality provincial Romans. I bet your customers
would love these. Everyone in that chain knows what's going on.

Follow the suggested links. Search on Google for other news reporting
from reputable sources. Counterfeit goods come from China, Panama,
Nigeria and many other places. Commerce is global.

-------------------------------------

Terrorist Counterfeit Connection
Aired December 1, 2003 - 08:18 ET

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the price may be right for
that fake Gucci bag or imitation Rolex watch being sold on the street,
but buyer beware. Your cash could actually be supporting terrorists.

Rachel Erhenfeld is the author of "Funding Evil: How Terrorism is
Financed and How To Stop It."

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0312/01/ltm.17.html

Interpol: Terrorist Eye Counterfeit Goods
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 25, 2004
Filed at 1:59 p.m. ET

BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) -- Terror groups increasingly are turning to
the lucrative trade in counterfeit goods -- from brake pads to music
CDs -- to finance their operations, but governments are only slowly
waking up to the threat, the head of Interpol warned Tuesday.

Interpol Secretary General Ronald Noble cited the seizure of $1.2
million worth of counterfeit German brake pads and shock absorbers in
Lebanon last October. A subsequent inquiry found that profits were
destined for supporters of Hezbollah, considered a terrorist
organization by Washington.

Last year, Danish customs intercepted a container filled with
counterfeit shampoos and other toiletries allegedly sent by a member
of al-Qaida.

http://www.cardinalcommerce.com/arti...%20Goods.h tm

TESTIMONY OF LARRY C. JOHNSON
BERG ASSOCIATES, LLC
16 July 2003
BEFORE THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HEARING ON "Intellectual Property Crimes: Are Proceeds From
Counterfeited Goods Funding Terrorism "

For example, we helped seize a dvd-based game system
that imitated the artwork of a SONY PLAYSTATIONS but the box was
labeled "POLYSTATION". One of the first raids my company conducted in
the Colon Free Zone of Panama was against Overseas Dispatcher,
International, a company owned by Mr. Walid Zayed. Mr. Zayed has
direct relations with Palestinian terrorists and claims to be the
Latin American representative for the "Intifada". Mr. Zayed, who is
also a convicted money launderer, was selling products that outwardly
used the same color and artwork as Sunbeam OSTER-brand products but
bore the name, "ASTOR".

Counterfeit products bear the labels of Sony, Ralph Lauren, Calvin
Klein, Philip Morris, Black and Decker, Nike, Reebok, and Sunbeam but
can be had for a price that is 60% to 70% of the original.

http://wwwa.house.gov/international_...08/johnson.pdf

----------------------------

Jorg Lueke wrote:

On 20 Jun 2004 05:11:46 -0700, Michael E. Marotta
wrote:

No multinational corporation suffers a loss when a few thousand fake
ancients or fake Trade Dollars are run off and sold a few hundred at a
time here or there. The key problem with criminality is that it
throws all criminals together.
It does? Maybe in a large sense by applying the label criminal to petty
crimes, misdemeanors, felonies, and murderers but language gives us the
ability to further refine the definitions.

Cigarettes are heavily taxed in one
place; pork is illegal in another.

Laws vary from place to place, true enough...

"Money laundering" (so-called) is
nothing more than tax evasion and while we shudder at the thought that
criminals evade American taxes, is that the same crime as evading the
taxes of a military dictatorship?

Money laundering is not only evading taxes but also concealing evidence of
a crime. A little more complicated than simple tax evasion.

Completely correct. It's taking funds from illegal enterprises and
through deceptive accounting making it appear they originate from a
lawful enterprise.


Unfortunately for the sophists,
moral gray areas shade into worse conditions. No one who buys a fake
coin can trace the paths of commerce involved in that transaction.

I'm sure some people can. Hey Mike meet Bill, he knows a Bulgraian who'se
friend makes lots of high quality provincial Romans. I bet your customers
would love these. Everyone in that chain knows what's going on.

For the end comsumer, however, this can be harder, as Mike writes. It's
possible to buy a fake from someone who does not know they are selling a
fake. There is, ultimately, some chain of possession that will take you
back to the source, but it's far from easy to do.

For example, the famous 1909-S VDB diestruck counterfeits are
*suspected* to have been made at an idle factory in Italy. Despite tens
of thousands of them being confiscated (the number 95,000 sticks in my
mind, but I've not gone to look it up) and several dealers handing them
over and being asked 'where did you get these'? Hancock and Spanbauer
describes those dealers as 'uncooperative' or 'suddenly forgetful' or
something like that. The importers and makers were never publically
identified or charged.

Alan
'from memory'

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 15:13:34 GMT, Alan Williams
wrote:

For the end comsumer, however, this can be harder, as Mike writes. It's
possible to buy a fake from someone who does not know they are selling a
fake. There is, ultimately, some chain of possession that will take you
back to the source, but it's far from easy to do.

For example, the famous 1909-S VDB diestruck counterfeits are
*suspected* to have been made at an idle factory in Italy. Despite tens
of thousands of them being confiscated (the number 95,000 sticks in my
mind, but I've not gone to look it up) and several dealers handing them
over and being asked 'where did you get these'? Hancock and Spanbauer
describes those dealers as 'uncooperative' or 'suddenly forgetful' or
something like that. The importers and makers were never publically
identified or charged.

Right, especially if one was fooled into buying the coin in the first
place it'll be quite hard to track down. Certainly when buying fakes as
fakes the original creator is quite possible long forgotten. But I hope
Mike isn't suggesting that buying any fake is somehow supportive of
terrorism because the illegally made coin may have been made by a shady
personage.

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:43:14 -0500, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

Mike isn't suggesting that buying any fake is somehow supportive of
terrorism

This is exactly what he's implying. It's just an loony as other
comments he's made in the past, that those who study counterfeits for
counterfeit detection and education are devil worshippers, all the
rest. The fact here, once again!, is that terrorist activities are
indeed supported by counterfeiting, but by the counterfeiting of large
amounts of current U.S. currency, a multimillion dollar problem. This
is clear. And this is where the U.S. Secret Service, understandably,
devotes the lion's share of its resources. It's less clear that those
who make or sell counterfeits of collectible coins as counterfeits are
involved with terrorism. More likely is that most of them are just
run-of-the-mill bad guys, petty criminals out to scam the unsuspecting
out of several hundred or less frequently several thousand dollars.
Michael is doing what he does, making a huge leap that's neither
supported by logic or evidence, extrapolating from reality to loony
unreality, that those who buy counterfeit ancient coins as
counterfeits for $10 or $15 a pop (not the hundreds or thousands of
dollars a pop that the counterfeit maker initially intended) to study
and document are supporting international terrorism.

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:43:14 -0500, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

Mike isn't suggesting that buying any fake is somehow supportive of
terrorism

This is exactly what he's implying. It's just an loony as other
comments he's made in the past, that those who study counterfeits for
counterfeit detection and education are devil worshippers, all the
rest. snipped usual whine

Fascinating how Reid can immediately see what other folk mean, yet can't see the
meaning of what he himself says.

Too close to it, I guess.

--
Jeff R.

"A.Gent" wrote:

"Reid Goldsborough" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:43:14 -0500, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

Mike isn't suggesting that buying any fake is somehow supportive of
terrorism

This is exactly what he's implying. It's just an loony as other
comments he's made in the past, that those who study counterfeits for
counterfeit detection and education are devil worshippers, all the
rest. snipped usual whine

Fascinating how Reid can immediately see what other folk mean, yet can't see the
meaning of what he himself says.

Too close to it, I guess.

In a tip of the hat to Reid, you have to admire the man's powers of
memorization. Even though he has some inevitable 'drift' (Robert Graves
'The Greek Myths' becomes "a college textbook" becomes 'something you
read in school' becomes 'something you heard in a schoolyard'), by and
large he writes the same chunk of trip verbatim, ad infinitum.

Alan
'never accused Reid of "running an import business"'

In article ,
Reid Goldsborough wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 10:43:14 -0500, Jorg Lueke
wrote:

Mike isn't suggesting that buying any fake is somehow supportive of
terrorism

This is exactly what he's implying. It's just an loony as other
comments he's made in the past, that those who study counterfeits for
counterfeit detection and education are devil worshippers, all the
rest.

Reid,

I found this statement so outrageous that I did a search in the group
archives on "devil worship." I found this response from Mike:

http://tinyurl.com/32elv

or

http://www.google.com/groups?q=devil...ting.coins& h
l=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&selm=a0ebae31.0310100506.625bd733%40p os
ting.google.com&rnum=1

His meaning is totally different from what you imply.

Scot Kamins
--
"Speak your truth, even as your voice quakes."

Alan Williams wrote:

In a tip of the hat to Reid, you have to admire the man's powers of
memorization. Even though he has some inevitable 'drift' (Robert Graves
'The Greek Myths' becomes "a college textbook" becomes 'something you
read in school' becomes 'something you heard in a schoolyard'), by and
large he writes the same chunk of trip verbatim, ad infinitum.

He's what his buddy Nancy would call a "text collector:
cut and paste


++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits

Scot Kamins wrote:

His meaning is totally different from what you imply.

Of course it is, but you'll never convince Mr. Out of Context. ;-)



++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits