How pieces of eight were cut

Hello,

I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins.

I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead
tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One
of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight.
Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not
know.

Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If
anyone has references on this that would also be very useful.

Thanks for your help!

Wendy

"wendy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins.

I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead
tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One
of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight.
Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not
know.

Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If
anyone has references on this that would also be very useful.

Thanks for your help!

Wendy


I have no references (Google is your friend) but I can offer the following
observations:

The two likely methods a

1) cut with a toothed blade ("hacksaw"), or
2) cut with a sharp edged tool ("cold chisel") and hammer

Method (1) is unlikely to be the best because:
(i) the fine toothed blade would be expensive
and difficult to maintain, and
(ii) the operation of cutting removes "filings"
equivalent to the width of the kerf. The kerf is the
slot made when cutting, and is at least as wide as
the blade is thick.

Method (2) is much more likely because:
(i) the tools (hammer and cold chisel) are (were)
relatively cheap and easy to maintain.
Plain steel (even iron) could be used on soft silver
Reale coins.
(ii) No filings are lost, as the chisel cut produces
no waste.
-and-
(iii) a chisel cut would be much quicker and easier.

(A "cold" chisel is named as such because they are used on cold -room temp.-
items. This is as opposed to fuller's or blacksmith's chisels which are used
on red-hot steel on an anvil.)

Other factors:
Hacksawing would leave a "jagged" and possibly crooked edge, depending on
the skill of the operator.
Chiselling would leave a straight edge (so long as the chisel is straight!)
but with a sharpish (not flat) edge.

The method used would be very easy to detect by observation.
The issue of clipping or filing (post-cutting) would complicate things,
though.

--
Jeff R.

"wendy" wrote:

Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If
anyone has references on this that would also be very useful.

With whatever handtools were available, most commonly a mallet and
chisel, but lacking anything else an axe. Here's a reference on cutting
of 2 reale pieces:
http://www.amnumsoc.org/cnl/Pistareens.pdf

--
Michael Benveniste --
Spam and UCE professionally evaluated for $419. Use this email
address only to submit mail for evaluation.

It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject
some years ago, I presented the following:
"But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in
the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe
spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without
encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807,
however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a
dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a
negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,'
[he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to
chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to
cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and
ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and
returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle
running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of
a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I
got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with
his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that
service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I
found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky
and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to
me.)"

Robert Leonard

"Jeff R" wrote in message
...

"wendy" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hello,

I am new to this group, and know very little about collecting coins.

I am writing because I have a question about pieces of eight. I lead
tours of a building in Naper Settlement, a living history museum. One
of the topics of discussion during the tour is the piece of eight.
Visitors always ask me how the pieces of eight were cut, which I do not
know.

Is there anyone who can tell me how the pieces of eight were cut? If
anyone has references on this that would also be very useful.

Thanks for your help!

Wendy


I have no references (Google is your friend) but I can offer the following
observations:

The two likely methods a

1) cut with a toothed blade ("hacksaw"), or
2) cut with a sharp edged tool ("cold chisel") and hammer

Method (1) is unlikely to be the best because:
(i) the fine toothed blade would be expensive
and difficult to maintain, and
(ii) the operation of cutting removes "filings"
equivalent to the width of the kerf. The kerf is the
slot made when cutting, and is at least as wide as
the blade is thick.

Method (2) is much more likely because:
(i) the tools (hammer and cold chisel) are (were)
relatively cheap and easy to maintain.
Plain steel (even iron) could be used on soft silver
Reale coins.
(ii) No filings are lost, as the chisel cut produces
no waste.
-and-
(iii) a chisel cut would be much quicker and easier.

(A "cold" chisel is named as such because they are used on cold -room
temp.-
items. This is as opposed to fuller's or blacksmith's chisels which are
used
on red-hot steel on an anvil.)

Other factors:
Hacksawing would leave a "jagged" and possibly crooked edge, depending on
the skill of the operator.
Chiselling would leave a straight edge (so long as the chisel is
straight!)
but with a sharpish (not flat) edge.

The method used would be very easy to detect by observation.
The issue of clipping or filing (post-cutting) would complicate things,
though.

--
Jeff R.


The pieces I have are cold chiselled.

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005 10:26:30 -0400, "Michael Benveniste"
wrote:

With whatever handtools were available, most commonly a mallet and
chisel, but lacking anything else an axe.

A good blacksmith shear does the job, too.

I think the only correct answer to the question is "whatever they had
available."

BLReed

To e-mail me, remove the obvious spam trap.
For collector coins and supplies at fair prices: http://tinyurl.com/pt9r
Cool things and Bust Coin Forum: http://www.byronreed.com

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject
some years ago, I presented the following:
"But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in
the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe
spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without
encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807,
however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a
dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a
negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,'
[he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to
chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to
cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and
ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and
returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle
running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of
a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I
got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with
his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that
service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I
found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky
and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to
me.)"

Robert Leonard


I have a small bag of cut halfpennies and farthings from 13th century
England, some of them appear to have been axed, others cut with shears.

These are common, and can be found in the mini hoards like I have, of
several hundred pieces.

But I have not yet seen a cut dollar, I wonder if it actually was one of the
Spanish milled dollars?

Scottishmoney wrote:

"Bob" wrote in message
oups.com...
It was done with an axe or chisel. In my Stack Lecture on this subject
some years ago, I presented the following:
"But in southwestern Pennsylvania, where cut money had been common in
the latter half of the 18th century, traveler and author Thomas Ashe
spent four months in Pittsburgh and vicinity in 1806 and 1807 without
encountering any. When he reached Paris, Kentucky, in July 1807,
however, he paid the landlady of the inn for his breakfast with a
dollar, adding, quote, "She took up the dollar, and pitching it to a
negro, desired him to chop it. `Chop it! ma'am I want it changed,'
[he said]. She made no reply, but going to the man, desired him to
chop out of the dollar one quarter and one eighth; in other words, to
cut out her charge of one shilling and threepence for my breakfast, and
ninepence for my horse. The man did this with great dexterity, and
returned me the dollar with nearly one fourth cut out, with an angle
running to the middle, which gave it the appearance of three fourths of
a circle. Learning that this was the legal mode of procuring change, I
got the same dexterous person to transform a couple more dollars with
his chisel, into quarters, eighths, and sixteenths. He executed that
service in a few moments; I received a handful of small change, which I
found of advantage on the road." Ashe spent the next month in Kentucky
and Ohio. (Thanks to Alan Herbert for supplying this reference to
me.)"

Robert Leonard


I have a small bag of cut halfpennies and farthings from 13th century
England, some of them appear to have been axed, others cut with shears.

These are common, and can be found in the mini hoards like I have, of
several hundred pieces.

But I have not yet seen a cut dollar, I wonder if it actually was one of the
Spanish milled dollars?

I remember reading many years ago that "cob" means "cut from a bar", or
similar. Billy

Spanish milled dollars were certainly cut for small change in the 18th
and early 19th centuries in the Colonies and United States, chiefly
along the frontier where minted change was scarce. Besides the
eyewitness quotation given earlier in this thread, there are many other
contemporary references to them, and they have been excavated by
archaeologists and found with metal detectors.

Regarding "cob," the old etymology that it comes from the Spanish "cabo
de barra," "end of the bar" is pure nonsense, as "cob" is not the
Spanish name for these coins, which is "macuquina." "Cob" is an Irish
term meaning "lump," as a "cob of coal." Obviously it was applied in
an English-speaking country to these lumplike coins. However, this
legend never seems to die.

Incidentally, the term "bit" for the Spanish real is found in the
Colonial Archives of Pennsylvania in the 17th century, many decades
before the introduction of the Spanish milled dollar and its cutting.
It just refers to the smallest coin seen in circulation (think
"threepenny bit"). Again, the erroneous belief that it comes from cut
pieces of eight seems too well-established to be stamped out. (But I
try!)

Robert Leonard

Does the fact that the term bit does not come from the cut pieces of
eight imply that an eight of a spanish milled dollar was not called a
"bit"?