Bronze Medals

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?
--
Buzz Huse, MCSE+I, MCSE Iter Sine Fine (Journey Without End)

"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:
When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in `proof
like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the dies are
sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these days usually by
polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

Clarification:

THe medals I like ob eBay are toned. When medals are produced, do they
plain bronze that is shiny as in non-toned? Or is antiquing the finish
artificially done to a medal to highlight the details?

Ian wrote:
I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in `proof
like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the dies are
sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these days usually by
polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?





--
Buzz Huse, MCSE+I, MCSE Iter Sine Fine (Journey Without End)

"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."

Hi George,

I'd be going out of my depth to say much more, but I believe that
`antiquing' (as in darkening a piece as you make mention of) is
definitely applied post strike.

Many bronze medals start off in life as `plain bronze'and thereafter
tone naturally. Many others (especially modern ones) start life the same
way and are subsequently `antiqued' (for want of a better word) as in
artificially toned to give them that old patinated look.

Here's a plaque I had until recently that is most definitely `antiqued'.

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K1.jpg

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K2.jpg

I have a couple of bronzes that are naturally toned but I haven't got
them scanned as yet. Iif it would be any help I can scan them and email
to you sometime in the next 24 hrs or so. However, medals behave the
same as coins, and not all bronze medals were artificially toned.....but
(caution) I claim absolutely no expertise in this area...or any other. :-)

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:
Clarification:

THe medals I like ob eBay are toned. When medals are produced, do they
plain bronze that is shiny as in non-toned? Or is antiquing the finish
artificially done to a medal to highlight the details?

Ian wrote:

I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in
`proof like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the dies
are sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these days
usually by polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

Thanks, Ian. The reason I was asking is this:

I am trying to find out who owns the design for Adolph Alexander
Weinman's design for the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition at the St.
Louis World's Fair. I found a way to contact his son Robert Weinman,
also a sculptor, through the National Sculpture Society. I'm trying to
get the authorization to use the design on a RCC Medal.

It may have been the US Government who commissioned the design. I also
emailed my Senator to see if they will let me do it.

Original medal, which had a variety of shapes:




I just want to reproduce the circular portion:



I need to know if medals such as these used a bronze that had or had not
been artificially antiqued.

Ian wrote:

Hi George,

I'd be going out of my depth to say much more, but I believe that
`antiquing' (as in darkening a piece as you make mention of) is
definitely applied post strike.

Many bronze medals start off in life as `plain bronze'and thereafter
tone naturally. Many others (especially modern ones) start life the same
way and are subsequently `antiqued' (for want of a better word) as in
artificially toned to give them that old patinated look.

Here's a plaque I had until recently that is most definitely `antiqued'.

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K1.jpg

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K2.jpg

I have a couple of bronzes that are naturally toned but I haven't got
them scanned as yet. Iif it would be any help I can scan them and email
to you sometime in the next 24 hrs or so. However, medals behave the
same as coins, and not all bronze medals were artificially toned.....but
(caution) I claim absolutely no expertise in this area...or any other. :-)

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

Clarification:

THe medals I like ob eBay are toned. When medals are produced, do
they plain bronze that is shiny as in non-toned? Or is antiquing the
finish artificially done to a medal to highlight the details?

Ian wrote:

I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in
`proof like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the
dies are sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these days
usually by polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?














--
Buzz Huse, MCSE+I, MCSE Iter Sine Fine (Journey Without End)

"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."

That medal is a beautiful piece of artwork....(and if you pull it off
put me down for three at least) :-)

I'd be surprised if the blanks had been patinated pre-strike
however...but I honestly couldn't tell you. Hopefully someone here might
be able to answer that question though.

It looks like an interesting metal mix however. Very light for `bronze'
to my eye...but that could be my eyesight or my monitor.....

I might be mistaken, but somehow my mind has it that Paul Baker knows a
thing or two about medals....you there Paul?

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:
Thanks, Ian. The reason I was asking is this:

I am trying to find out who owns the design for Adolph Alexander
Weinman's design for the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition at the St.
Louis World's Fair. I found a way to contact his son Robert Weinman,
also a sculptor, through the National Sculpture Society. I'm trying to
get the authorization to use the design on a RCC Medal.

It may have been the US Government who commissioned the design. I also
emailed my Senator to see if they will let me do it.

Original medal, which had a variety of shapes:






I just want to reproduce the circular portion:




I need to know if medals such as these used a bronze that had or had not
been artificially antiqued.

Ian wrote:

Hi George,

I'd be going out of my depth to say much more, but I believe that
`antiquing' (as in darkening a piece as you make mention of) is
definitely applied post strike.

Many bronze medals start off in life as `plain bronze'and thereafter
tone naturally. Many others (especially modern ones) start life the
same way and are subsequently `antiqued' (for want of a better word)
as in artificially toned to give them that old patinated look.

Here's a plaque I had until recently that is most definitely `antiqued'.

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K1.jpg

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K2.jpg

I have a couple of bronzes that are naturally toned but I haven't got
them scanned as yet. Iif it would be any help I can scan them and
email to you sometime in the next 24 hrs or so. However, medals behave
the same as coins, and not all bronze medals were artificially
toned.....but (caution) I claim absolutely no expertise in this
area...or any other. :-)

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

Clarification:

THe medals I like ob eBay are toned. When medals are produced, do
they plain bronze that is shiny as in non-toned? Or is antiquing the
finish artificially done to a medal to highlight the details?

Ian wrote:

I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in
`proof like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the
dies are sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these days
usually by polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

Ian wrote:
That medal is a beautiful piece of artwork....(and if you pull it off
put me down for three at least) :-)

I'd be surprised if the blanks had been patinated pre-strike
however...but I honestly couldn't tell you. Hopefully someone here might
be able to answer that question though.

It looks like an interesting metal mix however. Very light for `bronze'
to my eye...but that could be my eyesight or my monitor.....

I might be mistaken, but somehow my mind has it that Paul Baker knows a
thing or two about medals....you there Paul?

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

Thanks, Ian. The reason I was asking is this:

I am trying to find out who owns the design for Adolph Alexander
Weinman's design for the 1904 Louisiana Purchase Exposition at the St.
Louis World's Fair. I found a way to contact his son Robert Weinman,
also a sculptor, through the National Sculpture Society. I'm trying
to get the authorization to use the design on a RCC Medal.

It may have been the US Government who commissioned the design. I
also emailed my Senator to see if they will let me do it.

Original medal, which had a variety of shapes:






I just want to reproduce the circular portion:




I need to know if medals such as these used a bronze that had or had
not been artificially antiqued.

Ian wrote:

Hi George,

I'd be going out of my depth to say much more, but I believe that
`antiquing' (as in darkening a piece as you make mention of) is
definitely applied post strike.

Many bronze medals start off in life as `plain bronze'and thereafter
tone naturally. Many others (especially modern ones) start life the
same way and are subsequently `antiqued' (for want of a better word)
as in artificially toned to give them that old patinated look.

Here's a plaque I had until recently that is most definitely `antiqued'.

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K1.jpg

http://www.imb4u2.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/images/K2.jpg

I have a couple of bronzes that are naturally toned but I haven't got
them scanned as yet. Iif it would be any help I can scan them and
email to you sometime in the next 24 hrs or so. However, medals
behave the same as coins, and not all bronze medals were artificially
toned.....but (caution) I claim absolutely no expertise in this
area...or any other. :-)

Ian

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

Clarification:

THe medals I like ob eBay are toned. When medals are produced, do
they plain bronze that is shiny as in non-toned? Or is antiquing
the finish artificially done to a medal to highlight the details?

Ian wrote:

I take that back....my initial response is not strictly speaking true.

There's shiny as in `bright and lustrous' and there's shiny as in
`proof like finish' (usually the first few items struck while the
dies are sharp) and then there is `proof finish' produced these
days usually by polished dies and multiple striking.

Ian wrote:

Only if the particular dies used have been polished.

George V. Huse, Jr. wrote:

When they are created, is the bronze shiny?


















--
Buzz Huse, MCSE+I, MCSE Iter Sine Fine (Journey Without End)

"These opinions/comments are entirely my own and no one else's."

"George V. Huse, Jr." wrote in message .com...
When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

George,
The bronze is "shiny" during the striking phase of the creation of a
medallion. When a bronze medallion is produced, all through out the
striking process the bronze is in a "bright" stage. When it is known
that a medal is going to be antiqued (have a patina finish applied)
the dies are normally brought to a satin type finish as compared to a
polished finish like seen on typical coin dies. The reason being is
why waste the time to polish up the die when the mirror is going to be
removed to apply the antique finish anyway. If the medal is going to
have a bright as in a coin or proof finish the dies are polished
accordingly before striking. Anyway, the satin finish on the medals
does not make them bright as your average coin would look, but it
makes the medal look rather dull without any real luster. The satin
finish is the same in the relief as well as the on the fields so there
is no real contrast between the two. With this type of process the
metal of the piece is still considered to be in a bright (unfinished)
state. The medals that require multiple strikes have to be annealed
between strikes. Just heating the medals up to soften them would
create a layer of heavy oxidation which would look like an ugly burnt
bronze patina. This oxidation would eat up the surface of the dies.
To alleviate this problem we use controlled atmosphere annealing
furnaces that typically run ammonia heated to ~1750 F. The heated
ammonia at this temp breaks down into hydrogen and nitrogen. The
hydrogen flashes off and consumes any oxygen in the furnace,
preventing oxidation on the medals, and the nitrogen keeps an inert
atmosphere around the medals until they cool to below their oxidation
tempature. This may seem like alot to go through but the end result is
ready to strike softened medallions that are still in the bright
stage. This same process in used (with some variations) for making
regular coin blanks. After the medal is fully struck up it is sent to
the finishing department where the surface of the entire medal is
preped so it will hold the oxidation. The medal in dipped in any
number of solutions depending on the color of patina desired. The
medal is then relieved (highlited) by buffing with any number of
brushes or buffs required for the different looks found on medallions.
This is done either by hand or by automatic finishing equipment
depending on difficulty of the relief and other parameters. Typically
the medal is coated in some sort of laquer to keep the antique finish
from changing (or antiqueing any further). The process is basically
the same for copper, nickel, and silver, or whatever alloy is being
utilized.

Best regards,
Sean Moffatt
Operations Manager
Hoffman Mint
www.hoffmanmint.com

On 15 Sep 2003 09:07:30 -0700, (Sean Moffatt) is alleged to
have written:

"George V. Huse, Jr." wrote in message .com...
When they are created, is the bronze shiny?

George,

*massive snippage of good stuff*


Best regards,
Sean Moffatt
Operations Manager
Hoffman Mint
www.hoffmanmint.com

Am I the only one who's really glad Sean hangs around here? Sean, excellent
post. Stujoe, you ought to archive his post!

bruce